I can respect your position on that screwing up a war hard to create a deterrent and disincentive, it’s an interesting one. To me that (and arguments that he’s done more to reduce oil consumption than any environmental activist) are silver linings than reasons to direct your vote on the future one way or another.
We had an international coalition going into Afghanistan
As a Canadian, “my country” got involved there but we got burnt pretty bad I’d say, whatever the result was.
I’d rather see no war, despite Harris labelling Iran as the greatest adversary, I still don’t think it’s forgone conclusion that Harris would start a war, but I’ll assume she does for the sake of steelmanning your argument. I’m not a time traveler so I can only speculate the alternatives, but Trump instigated war not just once but twice with Iran. He’s giving American money away to dictators and allowing right wing propaganda campaigns to foment. He’s done nothing to help suffering Iranians, if Harris were to involve the US militarily, she would at least provide some forms of aid to try to mitigate the regime’s massacaring people and restore communication between people stuck their and the worldwide Iranian diaspora. It’s even hard for me to speculate how long a Harris-initiated war would be, but there would definitely be a stronger push to come to a nuclear deal quicker rather than this on-off style untrustworthy negotiation with Trump, and unlike him Harris would care about any unsanctioned action getting approval from Congress, which if it is ®-controlled would keep a short leash within the War Powers Act.
So overall, I will still push back on the argument that always springs up around American election-time that Harris/Dems will be equally bad therefore don’t vote, but I’ll entertain a nuanced argument that one supports a thing Trump did, intentional or not, over a at least somewhat hypothetical action Harris might take.
if Harris were to involve the US militarily, she would at least provide some forms of aid to try to mitigate the regime’s massacaring people and restore communication between people stuck their and the worldwide Iranian diaspora
Would she? Biden’s sanctions on Afghanistan created a humanitarian crisis, people were starving to death. Getting humanitarian aid would be dependent on them overthrowing the government. This is the whole argument behind economic sanctions, in every country they they subject to them - if the people are suffering, they’ll blame their own government and revolt.
This is, in many cases, delusional, or more about wanting to “do something” to look strong to voters. Because the Democratic party is assumed to be more progressive, they sometimes go even further in order to prove that they’re not soft and weak. This was the same logic behind mass incarceration under Clinton.
Congress, which if it is ®-controlled would keep a short leash within the War Powers Act.
Did the Republican-controlled Congress ever do anything to stop Obama from continuing the war in Afghanistan? Those people fucking love war. Every one of them is in bed with the military-industrial complex, as long as bombs are dropping, they’re thrilled.
So overall, I will still push back on the argument that always springs up around American election-time that Harris/Dems will be equally bad therefore don’t vote
To be precise, my position is not that they’re equally bad, but that they’re both fundamentally unacceptable. I cannot envision a future either of them would lead us to where we are not completely and totally fucked.
Four years of Biden brought declining economic conditions, record military spending, countless dead in Palestine, and four years closer to ecological collapse. When the average American sees that, they’re going to be dissatisfied and want change, which is why Trump won. What would four years of Harris get us? According to her, she wouldn’t do anything differently and refused to distinguish herself from him in any way. So, it’s reasonable to assume that things would continue in that direction, the same way they have for decades, across both Democratic and Republican administrations. Even if they somehow squeaked out a win in 2024, they would lose in 2028.
This whole mentality of lesser evilism is based on accepting the choices we’re presented with and trying to make the best of it. But my approach is to start at what actually needs to happen, and then try to work out how to get there. The crises we’re facing (climate change, for example) are part of the physical world, governed by the laws of physics. What a political system is capable of doing is only governed by human laws, by human norms and customs. If there is a disconnect between what a human system says it can do, and what a physical system says needs to happen, then the human system will bend and break. Either the rules of what our political system treats as possible will bend now, or they will break later, when, for example, cities are flooded and millions of climate refugees are starving at the border.
There is a giant boulder headed straight towards us, and one party denies it exists at all while the other acknowledges that there’s a boulder but saying we should step out of the way is unrealistic, unamerican, and probably somehow antisemitic.
From a physical perspective, what needs to happen are drastic fundamental, changes to the system, because none of this shit is sustainable. If the political system does not give us that option, if we are only offered options that completely refuse to bend to what is physically necessary, then the political system is simply broken and destined to fail, and all we can do is prepare for that.
And the best way I can see to prepare for that is to call out it’s inevitable failure and to distance myself from the people responsible. Because as the system is failing, the far-right are the only ones positioning themselves as an “alternative” (even though, as the Iran War demonstrates, they’re just more of the same), and if that’s the only alternative then that’s where people will turn. There needs to be a left-wing movement that can plausibly distance itself from the establishment’s failure and can be ready to step in and pick up the pieces, or else the far-right will be the only game in town.
I can respect your position on that screwing up a war hard to create a deterrent and disincentive, it’s an interesting one. To me that (and arguments that he’s done more to reduce oil consumption than any environmental activist) are silver linings than reasons to direct your vote on the future one way or another.
As a Canadian, “my country” got involved there but we got burnt pretty bad I’d say, whatever the result was.
I’d rather see no war, despite Harris labelling Iran as the greatest adversary, I still don’t think it’s forgone conclusion that Harris would start a war, but I’ll assume she does for the sake of steelmanning your argument. I’m not a time traveler so I can only speculate the alternatives, but Trump instigated war not just once but twice with Iran. He’s giving American money away to dictators and allowing right wing propaganda campaigns to foment. He’s done nothing to help suffering Iranians, if Harris were to involve the US militarily, she would at least provide some forms of aid to try to mitigate the regime’s massacaring people and restore communication between people stuck their and the worldwide Iranian diaspora. It’s even hard for me to speculate how long a Harris-initiated war would be, but there would definitely be a stronger push to come to a nuclear deal quicker rather than this on-off style untrustworthy negotiation with Trump, and unlike him Harris would care about any unsanctioned action getting approval from Congress, which if it is ®-controlled would keep a short leash within the War Powers Act.
So overall, I will still push back on the argument that always springs up around American election-time that Harris/Dems will be equally bad therefore don’t vote, but I’ll entertain a nuanced argument that one supports a thing Trump did, intentional or not, over a at least somewhat hypothetical action Harris might take.
Would she? Biden’s sanctions on Afghanistan created a humanitarian crisis, people were starving to death. Getting humanitarian aid would be dependent on them overthrowing the government. This is the whole argument behind economic sanctions, in every country they they subject to them - if the people are suffering, they’ll blame their own government and revolt.
This is, in many cases, delusional, or more about wanting to “do something” to look strong to voters. Because the Democratic party is assumed to be more progressive, they sometimes go even further in order to prove that they’re not soft and weak. This was the same logic behind mass incarceration under Clinton.
Did the Republican-controlled Congress ever do anything to stop Obama from continuing the war in Afghanistan? Those people fucking love war. Every one of them is in bed with the military-industrial complex, as long as bombs are dropping, they’re thrilled.
To be precise, my position is not that they’re equally bad, but that they’re both fundamentally unacceptable. I cannot envision a future either of them would lead us to where we are not completely and totally fucked.
Four years of Biden brought declining economic conditions, record military spending, countless dead in Palestine, and four years closer to ecological collapse. When the average American sees that, they’re going to be dissatisfied and want change, which is why Trump won. What would four years of Harris get us? According to her, she wouldn’t do anything differently and refused to distinguish herself from him in any way. So, it’s reasonable to assume that things would continue in that direction, the same way they have for decades, across both Democratic and Republican administrations. Even if they somehow squeaked out a win in 2024, they would lose in 2028.
This whole mentality of lesser evilism is based on accepting the choices we’re presented with and trying to make the best of it. But my approach is to start at what actually needs to happen, and then try to work out how to get there. The crises we’re facing (climate change, for example) are part of the physical world, governed by the laws of physics. What a political system is capable of doing is only governed by human laws, by human norms and customs. If there is a disconnect between what a human system says it can do, and what a physical system says needs to happen, then the human system will bend and break. Either the rules of what our political system treats as possible will bend now, or they will break later, when, for example, cities are flooded and millions of climate refugees are starving at the border.
There is a giant boulder headed straight towards us, and one party denies it exists at all while the other acknowledges that there’s a boulder but saying we should step out of the way is unrealistic, unamerican, and probably somehow antisemitic.
From a physical perspective, what needs to happen are drastic fundamental, changes to the system, because none of this shit is sustainable. If the political system does not give us that option, if we are only offered options that completely refuse to bend to what is physically necessary, then the political system is simply broken and destined to fail, and all we can do is prepare for that.
And the best way I can see to prepare for that is to call out it’s inevitable failure and to distance myself from the people responsible. Because as the system is failing, the far-right are the only ones positioning themselves as an “alternative” (even though, as the Iran War demonstrates, they’re just more of the same), and if that’s the only alternative then that’s where people will turn. There needs to be a left-wing movement that can plausibly distance itself from the establishment’s failure and can be ready to step in and pick up the pieces, or else the far-right will be the only game in town.