you would actually need to contribute to receive, and you couldnt just move money around contributing nothing

  • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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    3 days ago

    I haven’t read his book but my understanding is that while there were means of exchange in many societies, the foundation of most pre-historic economies was the gift economy.

    Unless you are counting that as a form of exchange? It was typically reciprocal in many ways.

    • Hapankaali@lemmy.world
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      3 days ago

      A gift-based economy does feature reciprocity, but it is very different from one based on bartering. In a gift economy it is implicit that those that lack the ability to contribute as much are also not expected to reciprocate to the same degree.

      • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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        3 days ago

        Yeah I’m not saying it’s barter, but OP’s comment didn’t mention it at all so I thought it was important to talk about.

        • artifex@piefed.social
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          3 days ago

          Yep, I have a dramatic oversimplification problem. But it’s hard to describe 50,000+ years of economic proclivities in a tweet :)

    • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 days ago
      A passage from the book:

      What all such cases of trade through barter have in common is that they are meetings with strangers who will, likely as not, never meet again, and with whom one certainly will not enter into any ongoing relations. This is why a direct one-on-one exchange is appropriate: each side makes their trade and walks away. It’s all made possible by laying down an initial mantle of sociability, in the form of shared pleasures, music and dance—the usual base of conviviality on which trade must always be built. Then comes the actual trading, where both sides make a great display of the latent hostility that necessarily exists in any exchange of material goods between strangers—where neither party has no particular reason not to take advantage of the other—by playful mock aggression, though in the Nambikwara case, where the mantle of sociability is extremely thin, mock aggression is in constant danger of slipping over into the real thing. The Gunwinggu, with their more relaxed attitude toward sexuality, have quite ingeniously managed to make the shared pleasures and aggression into exactly the same thing.

      Recall here the language of the economics textbooks: “Imagine a society without money.” “Imagine a barter economy.” One thing these examples make abundantly clear is just how limited the imaginative powers of most economists turn out to be. 21

      Why? The simplest answer would be: for there to even be a discipline called “economics,” a discipline that concerns itself first and foremost with how individuals seek the most advantageous arrangement for the exchange of shoes for potatoes, or cloth for spears, it must assume that the exchange of such goods need have nothing to do with war, passion, adventure, mystery, sex, or death. Economics assumes a division between different spheres of human behavior that, among people like the Gunwinngu and the Nambikwara, simply does not exist. These divisions in turn are made possible by very specific institutional arrangements: the existence of lawyers, prisons, and police, to ensure that even people who don’t like each other very much, who have no interest in developing any kind of ongoing relationship, but are simplyinterested in getting their hands on as much of the others’ possessions as possible, will nonetheless refrain from the most obvious expedient (theft). This in turn allows us to assume that life is neatly divided between the marketplace, where we do our shopping, and the “sphere of consumption,” where we concern ourselves with music, feasts, and seduction. In other words, the vision of the world that forms the basis of the economics textbooks, which Adam Smith played so large a part in promulgating, has by now become so much a part of our common sense that we find it hard to imagine any other possible arrangement.

      From these examples, it begins to be clear why there are no societies based on barter. Such a society could only be one in which everybody was an inch away from everybody else’s throat; but nonetheless hovering there, poised to strike but never actually striking, forever.

      The basic idea is that our modern economic system has had the humanity stripped out of it in order to be an engineerable system at all. The natural way for things to work is for personal relationships and cultural conventions to come first, to the point where the way to make impersonal trade work was to make it more personal; for instance the text right before the quoted passage describes a culture whose barter meets were also swingers parties. The book has lots more examples of the ways material relations have fundamentally contradicted the idea that the natural way is to appraise things down to a numerical value and play an optimization game, for instance cultural practices of certain types of goods only being used for specific types of things like blood and marriage debts, and cultures which have strong taboos against ever refusing to give a person food.

      The problems OP is talking about are specific to capitalist society and the way people in it are conditioned to think. You don’t need a “system” that takes that way of thinking as its core assumption and constrains people thinking that way to act pro-socially, the much simpler solution would be to permit and enable the entanglement of personal and economic relations that naturally happens.