They are just not aware that they have this fear and can’t therefore understand and work on it effectively. Some people just seem to be stuck in emotional toddlerhood.
I’m hella scared of needles. Which makes me even cooler and braver for still getting vaccinated
My mum’s antivax because of the covid vaccine scare, and she’s slowly becoming more anti medicine. She’s recommended my sister to go off her meds more than once, which I don’t think I need to tell you guys is a bad idea
That’s one potential motivation. There are many others.
Most people stop learning when things get slightly difficult, which happens somewhere around 10-12 years old. That’s as far as most people get, and they remain roughly at that level for the rest of their lives. When considered in this way, many things about society and irrational beliefs make more sense.
I just think idiots in more developed countries have lost respect for the diseases that used to ravage the population. Smallpox, measles, and polio happened before their time and they assume their deadliness was overstated. In an attempt to look smart and persecuted they became vocal supporters of the antivax movement. I’ll admit there are probably a few of people who are afraid of needles to be in the antivaxer’s ranks though.
The phenomenon doesn’t seem too different from flat earthers who refuse to acknowledge objective evidence that runs counter to their beliefs and double down whenever they’re forced to see the truth.
There are probably some, but the only anti vax person I personally know is cool with acupuncture. It’s not fear of needles, it’s lack of fear of how horrific these diseases are. They also were a covid denier, so that also says a lot.
Nope. We have aerosol mist flu vaccines and they won’t take them either.
I absolutely fucking hate needles and I still get vaccinated because it’s the right thing to do and ultimately it just kind of pinches for a second? I tell you what though I live in dread of being hospitalized because I just know for a fact that I would fucking hate having an IV in me and not being able to like mess with it or take it out. Absolutely hate the idea of that so much.
If this were true, then we’d expect to see similar levels of antivax around the world, remaining at a constant rate. Let’s look at some actual numbers.
A world survey of the question, “Do you agree that vaccines are important for children to have?” found 97% agreement in Somalia, where the effects of vaccination are more observable, and only 68% agreement in France, which has had them long enough to take them for granted. In Asia, we see 95% in China, 93% in Vietnam, 96% in the Philippines and Cambodia, compared to 62% in South Korea and only 48% in Japan (down from 82% in 2015). 92% in Mexico compared to 79% in the US (which was 87% in 2015)
What’s going on here? Did 34% of Japanese people suddenly develop a fear of needles in the span of 10 years? In the Philippines, 100% of people agreed with that statement in 2015, which dipped all the way down to 68% in 2021, before recovering to 96% today! Weird that that phobia of needles spontaneously appeared out of nowhere, and everyone got over it just as suddenly.
Or, maybe it’s not really about a fear of needles at all. Maybe that has more to do with the fact that the US actively spread vaccine misinformation in the Philippines to get people to distrust China’s COVID vaccine. And if we can directly observe antivax attitudes generating in response to a targeted misinformation campaign, then maybe this whole thing has more to do with the spread of misinformation and conspiracy theories, rather than some innate phobia.
There’s even an Oxford study that confirms what I was thinking, albeit weakly: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8220023/ https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-16-treating-needle-fears-may-reduce-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-rates-10
Small number, though still significant.
Across the adult population, blood-injection-injury fears may explain approximately 10% of cases of COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy.
It’s not the main driving factor, is what I’m saying. There’s of course going to be some people who avoid vaccines because of a fear of needles, but those are generally ordinary people who are aware of the fear and may know it’s irrational but still can’t overcome it. The people who aren’t just hesitant but full on antivax aren’t generally driven by a fear of needles, they’re driven by the same factors that drive other conspiracy theories.
It’s not the main driving factor
Sure, that is trivially true.
I do think there is still merit to understanding those who are “not ordinary”, who don’t know they have a fear of needles and will just rationalise and rationalise until the world ends. While I’m sympathetic to your evocation of state sponsored misinfo, I don’t think that’s it either, at least not in a deep way since vaccine hesitancy has existed since the dawn of inoculations. In fact vaccine hesitancy might also be understood as a historical remnant from a time when vaccinations had much more common side effects. Variolation for example had a significant death rate. Seventy years ago, when the science of drug delivery wasn’t really a thing, side effects were much more pronounced. Basically: medical procedures that everyone has to go through are an easy target to activate the “lizard brain” with, be it intentional or not.
If it was nothing but a holdover from a time when vaccines were not as safe, then we would expect to see antivax attitudes declining over time. The primary factor is the spread of misinformation, whether state sponsored or otherwise. This misinformation reaches more people because of the internet, and it clearly correlates with decreasing levels of trust in institutions.
I think the better question to ask is why it lends itself to misinformation. Misinforming cabals are one thing, but why antivax specifically and not flatearth musings? I generally find it questionable to seek primary causes outside of objects that have immanent properties that could explain so much more.
Misinforming cabals are one thing, but why antivax specifically and not flatearth musings?
But… it’s both? Both of those things exist. And there’s overlap, people who believe in one conspiracy theory often believe in others. Someone might just happen to be exposed to one theory as opposed to the other, or they might find one plausible and the other absurd, or it could be that one more effectively appeals to something in one person than another.
My father worked in traffic safety in East Kentucky and something he encountered a lot was people refusing to wear seat belts because they saw it as “authoritarian” for the government to impose it on them. Plenty of antivaxxers frame it the same way, as it being an issue of personal choice and autonomy, against government or pharmaceutical companies. This combines with a natural desire to make sure they’re making the right choice for their children, and when they’re told that the science is clear and settled and that there’s one choice that’s objectively correct and another choice that’s objectively incorrect, some people don’t want to accept that, and they want to get both sides of the story, and as the only way to support antivax arguments is through lies, misinformation, substacks from people called “Dr. Wojak, M.D.” they get exposed to that conspiracy theory rather than a different one.
I generally find it questionable to seek primary causes outside of objects that have immanent properties that could explain so much more.
If it was an immanent property of the object, again, you wouldn’t see the kinds of variation across countries and over time. We can see a clear correlation that countries that more recently gained access to vaccines have much higher opinions of them. We can find other correlations and come up with reasonable explanations based on that, that for example complacency is a factor. If it wasn’t, if it’s just an immanent property of the object, then how do you explain the difference between perspectives on vaccines between different areas, like Somalia and France?
and as the only way to support antivax arguments is through lies, misinformation, substacks from people called “Dr. Wojak, M.D."
So is it your idea to limit the spread of misinformation after the fact, and then everything is fine? To say that vaccine denial is reproduced top to bottom, instead of being reproduced by the system of consumers and consumers of such content, abetted by the circumstance of vaccines themselves lending themselves well to paranoid narratives, is a bit shortsighed.
I get that this is a charged topic, but let’s not let the subject or “victim” of misinfo off the hook, as well as all the other relevant factors that can be understood to make it easier to combat antivax.
If it wasn’t, if it’s just an immanent property of the object, then how do you explain the difference between perspectives on vaccines between different areas, like Somalia and France?
For one, people in Somalia have much much bigger fish to fry and don’t feel the need to appeal to a nationalistically tainted right to bodily sovereignty. Secondly, there are other health measured the masses of people are subjected to. For instance lock downs, masking, fluoridation of drinking water, the GMO scare, the roundup scare, the gene editing scare, even sodium intake recommendations are twisted into pro salt conspiracy theories (I fucking wish I was joking but I had a gigantic fight with someone over this and it seems to be an issue on JP social media.) I could come up with many more. Public health is the perfect incubator for conspiracy theories, and it just so happens that vaccines are the queen here. For reasons that are quite obvious I would add. The sting, liquid going into one, (to an uneducated public) murky mechanisms of action, compulsion, etc.
Also people in Somalia aren’t as used to the internet and social media yet.
Sure, I don’t exclude this. This is not at odds with what I’m saying. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m trying to explain a part of the appeal not the entire thing.
Also fear of needles is in part culturally conditioned and varies country to country, region to region.
The truth is much simpler:
The Vax vs Unvaxx studies confirm that the health outcomes of unvaxx are generally better.
https://drwojakmd.substack.com/p/unvaccinated-children-are-healthier
. Population control is real.
. Eugenics is a thing
. Big Pharma and Big Food /Agriculture are the same financial group
. Rich billionaires don’t vaccinate their kids
Also… Before believing data, statistics and propaganda, I suggest to learn about data sources, data quality and data completeness.
Direct knowing from discernment is always preferred.
Disclaimer from suggested site from original post:
“Our World in Data does not warrant or make any representation regarding the use or the result of use of the content in terms of accuracy, reliability, or otherwise.”
Do you know what that is? That’s a child with smallpox in 1973. Do you know why we don’t have to deal with that anymore? Because of fucking vaccines, dumbass.
Now, you idiots are bringing back diseases that were already nearly eradicated, like measles, because you’re blindly trusting “Dr. Wojak, M.D.” instead of every actual doctor on the fucking planet.
A picture of a suffering child does not prove vaccines eradicated smallpox.
The question becomes:
Why do you believe what you believe?
Why do you get triggered when your identity feels attacked?
A picture of a suffering child does not prove vaccines eradicated smallpox.
THEN WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK DID?
All of human history, plagued by this disease, 300 million deaths in the 20th century alone, someone developed a vaccine, and poof, it’s gone. Just like that. Country by country, as the vaccine spread, the disease disappeared. Countries that didn’t have the vaccine yet, like the one where that picture was taken, still had smallpox, when other countries had eradicated it. Then they got the vaccine and it was gone.
How the fuck do your conspiracy theories explain that?
Why do you believe what you believe?
Because of overwhelming scientific evidence.
Why do you get triggered when your identity feels attacked?
Because you are promoting lies that are getting innocent people killed as we speak.
Hey! Thanks for the honest response.
I understand that vaccines seem like the obvious saviours for eradicating some dis-ease states. Although there is much more to that story which may require exploring various perspectives and worldviews.
“Because you are promoting lies that are getting innocent people killed as we speak.”
That is your perrogative.
This is a conversation that many people are in such denial about!
If you don’t defend yourself by filling your mind with the true understanding of what’s happening in the world, others will fill it for you. And use the conditions planted in your mind, to use you.
Knowing a ledge is only half way to Wisdom.
Since Children are the future!
And we are all Children, it is urgent to be empowered as opposed to disempowered or down.
Be Inspired
Enjoy the video and find out
Why do I believe vaccines work?
Because science is verifiable.
Why am I “triggered” because my “identity is under attack”?
I’m not triggered, and you’re not attacking my identity. You’re refusing to believe in verifiable facts. If you tell me that the sky isn’t blue, then the proper response isn’t debate. The proper response is to look at the sky, see that it is blue, and conclude that you’re fucking stupid.
Thank you for your response.
I am willing to learn from you and verify your scientific analysis any day.
For now, please consider the following inspiring video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3qWzu1Bxo4
Cheers
Before believing propaganda, I suggest to learn about data sources, data quality and completeness.
only source of info posted is a link to a substack blog from a dude named Dr. Wojack
Read the disclaimer from the original post here
https://ourworldindata.org/organization
Besides the opaque funding structure…
For a data platform valued for perceived neutrality, the interlocking relationships between trustees, think tanks, universities, and former government roles merit closer scrutiny—particularly regarding whether OWID’s work on development economics, health interventions, and climate policy could be influenced by trustees’ institutional commitments.
my friends didn’t get vax because he is afraid of needles , says it hurts it doesn’t have to be more complicated than the truth
You know what else hurts? Fucking measles
vaccines don’t hurt at all lol
Well, some of them do. Shingles was the most painful shot I’ve ever had in my life. It hurt the rest of the day and then some. Measles was the second most painful, but only for the duration of the shot itself and a short time after.
But I imagine the shingles shot to still be far less painful than actual shingles, from what people have told me of it, so I’d still choose the shot every time.
I had both shinrix about 3 years ago. I had shingles in '94.
- Shingles Fucking hurts.
- The shots were nothing after the actual injection.
The anthrax made my whole arm hurt for a day for each of the six shots. Small pox also hurt but that involves getting jabbed a bunch of time in a little circle at the same time.
I mean these are the exception and even then you just gotta bite the bullet, the pain is 100% worth it.
not the vaccines , the needles dude doesn’t even hit the dentist
The COVID vaccine definitely did cause me some pain on the skin when I got it. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have gotten it, of course.
I’m sure there are some people who fall into the rabbit hole because of this, but the antivax movement goes a lot further than being afraid of needles. Antivaxxers with tattoos and the like.
Ink is easy to understand, while drugs and vaccines are not at all intuitive from the vulgar perspective of appearance.
Vaccines and ink are distinct from the needles that deliver them. If you believe people avoid vaccines because of the needle, you can’t turn around and say that it’s actually because of what the needle is delivering.
If someone isn’t okay with a single jab, why would they be okay with a repeated series of jabs for minutes on end?
I can absolutely make this distinction. There is a gigantic qualitative difference between continuous small picks where you don’t feel the injection and a jab. With a syringe you get upwards of 0.5 mL injected into your body. The syringe has a real size to it. It takes half a minute to get a vaccine and needle is in your arm for more than 3 seconds easily. The entire content of the syringe is injected at one.
My sister has a fear of needles but has tattoos; She does not fear the tattoo gun. This is the case for a lot of people. Your logic blasts past reality.
I also didn’t say it was the case for every antivaxxer that they’re rationalising a fear of needles. I am explaining one cause of something that knows an innumerable amount of causes.
The qualitative difference between a needle that jabs deep and a needle that jabs shallowly is actually very small because in both cases there is a needle slipping between skin.
I have a fear of needles; I just got my first flu vaccine this week because now Flu-mist is a thing and I still nearly had a panic attack just being around everyone getting the jab. I also have no tattoos because it involves a needle jabbing me and putting stuff in my body. “This is the case for a lot of people.” Not everyone afraid of needles is your sister. I’m not sorry if “my logic” is different than hers.
The title of your post sounds like a pretty sweeping statement about antivaxxers. Rereading it you didn’t say that it’s the only reason, but you sure didn’t include anything to indicate that there could be more.
The title of your post sounds like a pretty sweeping statement about antivaxxers
It sounds that way to you.
but you sure didn’t include anything to indicate that there could be more.
I don’t have to. This is showerthoughts.
Not everyone afraid of needles is your sister
But it the case for a lot of people. I can apply your argument to you. Your personal experience, or your fear, doesn’t mean all that much as an argument. I couldn’t also cite two other people I know who both have tattoos and fear injections. I am sorry if I offended you in any way, I do not mean to suggest that people with a fear of needles are antivax, that that is the general case at least.
“It sounds that way to you.”
No shit, that’s why I’m the one saying it.
“This is showerthoughts.”
Yah, that’s why I reread the title in light of your clarification and moved on, because you probably didn’t give your original post too much thought, just like I didn’t give too much thought to thinking you were speaking broadly in my first response.
“But it is the case for a lot of people.”
No shit, that’s exactly the argument I made because it’s exactly the argument you made because it’s not a good argument. If I shouldn’t be saying it, neither should you.
I don’t know how to interpret you saying my logic “blasts past reality” as anything but offensive because it’s just an insult without anything more to it.
I said your logic blasts past reality before you reread what I said in detail. I was asking you to reconsider what I said, as it was said, and not to read anything into it inductively. I don’t mean to insult you, maybe it would have helped if I said “your logic blasts past what I am saying a bit”
It’s mainly narcissism. They want to be right and they want to be the ones in the know. That need takes over their entire personality and they fall for crap like antivaxx grift easily.
It’s the exact same thing with flat earthers.
Nonsense. I’m a huge needle-weenie and I’m properly vaxed.
How is it nonsense when you have self awareness? I wrote about people don’t understand their fear.
I tried to get over my fear of needles by getting a tattoo. It only kinda worked. Tattoo artist said that my face went so white they thought I would pass out.
Fully vaxxed though.
i mean i have a fear of needles so i look the other way while it happens. i have never felt the need to be like “welp now i hate science”.
i got two last week. i don’t watch either. hardly felt anything… it was like “oh, done already? alright. thanks.”
