We have to decide we want to do it before we can figure out how to do it.
Agreed. But that’s “should” language, not “can” language.
There is a definitive plan to live in a stateless classless moneyless society, it’s called socialism.
The last time something called socialism got widespread, it too succumbed to horrible corruption.
Focusing on how long and complicated the path could be is a great way to keep people disinterested in making any change whatsoever.
Ignoring how long and complicated the path to aircraft could be is a great way to get people jumping off buildings with cardboard wings.
I’m not saying you need to hide that part of it, but the way to inspire change is by keeping focus on what the goal is, and making it seem like it’s possible because it is.
The Incan economy isn’t going to painlessly scale to a globalized society. Pretending that it’s a rational alternative just makes you look foolish, which does more to hinder progress than soberly acknowledging the difficulty of the problem.
money is extremely vulnerable to corruption
Yes. Every system of resource and labor allocation is vulnerable to corruption. Some people are greedy, and no matter what system you devise to allocate resources and labor duties, some people will figure out how to manipulate it for personal advantage.
You claim to want the same outcomes as me, but your method of naysaying and picking at every detail will mostly lead to people disengaging with the conversation entirely. That’s actively harmful to the movement’s progress.
Ignoring the most basic attention to detail is much worse than over-attention to detail. While they deserve consideration, optics are secondary to functionality. The most popular plan in the world is useless if it doesn’t actually function.
Engagement is nothing without substance. You’re putting the cart before the horse.
You are well beyond “most basic”, and also I disagree. Over-attention to detail is a very easy way to make nothing happen at all, which is currently killing people. I’m not the person who’s going to map out a detailed plan to get to that society, nor do I think an internet comment section is the place to do that. Especially when what we’re talking about is global revolution which absolutely necessitates broad engagement with many many people who don’t know all the details and really don’t need to. This is a very appropriate context to be talking in broad strokes. And if you want to wait for some perfect plan with every detail in exactly the right place, you’ll be waiting until the heat death of the universe.
No, I’m not. You’ve provided nothing except some vague allusions to libraries and the Incas. That is not even the most basic level of detail.
Over-attention to detail is a very easy way to make nothing happen at all, which is currently killing people.
Under-attention is a very easy way to make things worse in your recklessness. You think people are dying now, what do you think of going to happen when the entire global economic system is plunged into chaos?
And who is disengaged when discussing details? You think someone like that it’s going to be useful at all in a revolution? Under-attention will scare off practical detail oriented people in exchange for the vague approval of lazy dullards. Lazy dullards are not useful to the cause at this stage. Practical detail oriented people are. Under-attention hurts more than over-attention.
nor do I think an internet comment section is the place to do that.
If a worldwide network of like-minded people of various specialties and expertise isn’t the place, where is?
Especially when what we’re talking about is global revolution which absolutely necessitates broad engagement with many many people who don’t know all the details and really don’t need to.
You’re still putting the cart before the horse. Engagement isn’t enough, you actually have to have the plan first before you worry about engagement. I see no plan. You can’t have a successful global revolution without a plan, no matter how much engagement you have.
This is a very appropriate context to be talking in broad strokes
You’re not taking in broad strokes, “Money bad” isn’t useful engagement. You have to pair that with what’s good, or you look like a foolish child with cardboard wings.
wait for some perfect plan with every detail in exactly the right place
Again, not talking about a perfect plan, just a plan. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just has to be practical. “Money bad” is not a plan, “the Incas” is not a plan. I’m not going to encourage jumping off the roof base on stitch vague notions, and I won’t sit by while fools do.
Figure out what the replacement is before you dismantle the global economy.
We have to agree “money bad” before making a plan to move beyond it.
My talking about about the Incas and different non-monetary systems isn’t me trying to make a plan, it’s trying to show the possibility of the concept.
We’re never going to pull off a revolution without numbers. And only giving air to the “practical detail oriented” people while name calling the rest is a great way to make sure you never get those numbers.
And yes, there is a plan that I did mention, socialism. But that’s not how you phrased your initial engagement with my comment.
We have to agree “money bad” before making a plan to move beyond it.
Yes, but that’s not the thing you said that I disagree with:
humanity absolutely has the ability to coordinate action without money at least as well (if not better) than how it is now
Replace “ability” with “potential” and I agree with you, but as written this is misleading. It assumes the planning has concluded, and a new system is ready to be implemented. This is not the case.
there is a plan that I did mention, socialism
Either “socialism” refers specifically to the USSR’s plan, in which case we’ve seen that fall to corruption, or it refers to a more general concept, in which case that’s more of an ideology than a plan. At best it’s a general roadmap, but it’s not policy by a mile.
Socialism is not immune to corruption. No matter what system you use, people will find the loopholes and vulnerabilities and blind spots. You’re just trading billionaires for bureaucrats. Even in a direct democracy, they’ll start podcasts to sway public opinion. They’ll steal from library economies, they’ll loaf in spontaneous mutualism.
You cannot eliminate this element, you can only change its form.
If you’re asking what I think the best way forward is, please just ask that from the beginning. My answer might’ve been that I’ve been working with the PSL and think they have a pretty good idea of a socialist America. Instead we’re bickering over the definition of “ability”.
Otherwise, you’re just arguing for the status quo that everyone hates.
I find it extremely ironic that you worry about scaring people off with practical details, but see no conflict in promoting a party which liberally uses poisoned leftist language. McCarthyism happened, the Cold War happened. Accurate terminology has been turned into boogeyman words.
The average American hears “socialism”, and they think of gulags and breadlines and authoritarianism. I’m not saying that’s an accurate conception, I’m just saying that’s the consequence of a century of anti-left propaganda.
If you’re worried about alienating people, start with your messaging. I fully believe that a socialist party will be substantially more successful if they embrace patriotic, market based, Christian language.
It’s not socialism in the workplace, it’s making every worker a stakeholder. It’s not UBI, it’s an investment in Americans. We’re not sissy bleeding heart libcucks obsessed with handouts, we’re spreading Jesus’ message of feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and embracing immigrants as we were immigrants in Egypt.
If you care about the persuasive content of the message, then care about it. Don’t clutch your pearls when people want their plans to be actual plans because that might scare people off, then push a party using poisoned language.
I don’t oppose the stated goals of the PSL, but you have to realize that, in America at least, socialist vocabulary is more divisive and alienating than sober, pragmatic tactics.
Agreed. But that’s “should” language, not “can” language.
The last time something called socialism got widespread, it too succumbed to horrible corruption.
Ignoring how long and complicated the path to aircraft could be is a great way to get people jumping off buildings with cardboard wings.
The Incan economy isn’t going to painlessly scale to a globalized society. Pretending that it’s a rational alternative just makes you look foolish, which does more to hinder progress than soberly acknowledging the difficulty of the problem.
Yes. Every system of resource and labor allocation is vulnerable to corruption. Some people are greedy, and no matter what system you devise to allocate resources and labor duties, some people will figure out how to manipulate it for personal advantage.
You claim to want the same outcomes as me, but your method of naysaying and picking at every detail will mostly lead to people disengaging with the conversation entirely. That’s actively harmful to the movement’s progress.
Ignoring the most basic attention to detail is much worse than over-attention to detail. While they deserve consideration, optics are secondary to functionality. The most popular plan in the world is useless if it doesn’t actually function.
Engagement is nothing without substance. You’re putting the cart before the horse.
You are well beyond “most basic”, and also I disagree. Over-attention to detail is a very easy way to make nothing happen at all, which is currently killing people. I’m not the person who’s going to map out a detailed plan to get to that society, nor do I think an internet comment section is the place to do that. Especially when what we’re talking about is global revolution which absolutely necessitates broad engagement with many many people who don’t know all the details and really don’t need to. This is a very appropriate context to be talking in broad strokes. And if you want to wait for some perfect plan with every detail in exactly the right place, you’ll be waiting until the heat death of the universe.
No, I’m not. You’ve provided nothing except some vague allusions to libraries and the Incas. That is not even the most basic level of detail.
Under-attention is a very easy way to make things worse in your recklessness. You think people are dying now, what do you think of going to happen when the entire global economic system is plunged into chaos?
And who is disengaged when discussing details? You think someone like that it’s going to be useful at all in a revolution? Under-attention will scare off practical detail oriented people in exchange for the vague approval of lazy dullards. Lazy dullards are not useful to the cause at this stage. Practical detail oriented people are. Under-attention hurts more than over-attention.
If a worldwide network of like-minded people of various specialties and expertise isn’t the place, where is?
You’re still putting the cart before the horse. Engagement isn’t enough, you actually have to have the plan first before you worry about engagement. I see no plan. You can’t have a successful global revolution without a plan, no matter how much engagement you have.
You’re not taking in broad strokes, “Money bad” isn’t useful engagement. You have to pair that with what’s good, or you look like a foolish child with cardboard wings.
Again, not talking about a perfect plan, just a plan. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just has to be practical. “Money bad” is not a plan, “the Incas” is not a plan. I’m not going to encourage jumping off the roof base on stitch vague notions, and I won’t sit by while fools do.
Figure out what the replacement is before you dismantle the global economy.
We have to agree “money bad” before making a plan to move beyond it.
My talking about about the Incas and different non-monetary systems isn’t me trying to make a plan, it’s trying to show the possibility of the concept.
We’re never going to pull off a revolution without numbers. And only giving air to the “practical detail oriented” people while name calling the rest is a great way to make sure you never get those numbers.
And yes, there is a plan that I did mention, socialism. But that’s not how you phrased your initial engagement with my comment.
Yes, but that’s not the thing you said that I disagree with:
Replace “ability” with “potential” and I agree with you, but as written this is misleading. It assumes the planning has concluded, and a new system is ready to be implemented. This is not the case.
Either “socialism” refers specifically to the USSR’s plan, in which case we’ve seen that fall to corruption, or it refers to a more general concept, in which case that’s more of an ideology than a plan. At best it’s a general roadmap, but it’s not policy by a mile.
Socialism is not immune to corruption. No matter what system you use, people will find the loopholes and vulnerabilities and blind spots. You’re just trading billionaires for bureaucrats. Even in a direct democracy, they’ll start podcasts to sway public opinion. They’ll steal from library economies, they’ll loaf in spontaneous mutualism.
You cannot eliminate this element, you can only change its form.
If you’re asking what I think the best way forward is, please just ask that from the beginning. My answer might’ve been that I’ve been working with the PSL and think they have a pretty good idea of a socialist America. Instead we’re bickering over the definition of “ability”.
Otherwise, you’re just arguing for the status quo that everyone hates.
I find it extremely ironic that you worry about scaring people off with practical details, but see no conflict in promoting a party which liberally uses poisoned leftist language. McCarthyism happened, the Cold War happened. Accurate terminology has been turned into boogeyman words.
The average American hears “socialism”, and they think of gulags and breadlines and authoritarianism. I’m not saying that’s an accurate conception, I’m just saying that’s the consequence of a century of anti-left propaganda.
If you’re worried about alienating people, start with your messaging. I fully believe that a socialist party will be substantially more successful if they embrace patriotic, market based, Christian language.
It’s not socialism in the workplace, it’s making every worker a stakeholder. It’s not UBI, it’s an investment in Americans. We’re not sissy bleeding heart libcucks obsessed with handouts, we’re spreading Jesus’ message of feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and embracing immigrants as we were immigrants in Egypt.
If you care about the persuasive content of the message, then care about it. Don’t clutch your pearls when people want their plans to be actual plans because that might scare people off, then push a party using poisoned language.
I don’t oppose the stated goals of the PSL, but you have to realize that, in America at least, socialist vocabulary is more divisive and alienating than sober, pragmatic tactics.