I am sorry, but this is nonsense. Even if the world sucks, the logical, smart response would not be dispair and depression, because that fixes nothing.
Also things like looking down on other or defensiveness are symptoms of low self esteem, not a high one. If you really are confident in yourself, you don’t need to feel better than others, because you feel good about yourself.
You can understand the world and still try to enjoy your life. The world always sucked and people found ways to cope with it. But that is a skill, that doesn’t always come naturally, but you should always strife towards that.
I am sorry, you are going through this, but don’t try to rationalize it. It is nearly rational, nor is it an inevitable outcome of high intelligence (this is not a judgement of you personally by the way).
Yes, that’s not what I am saying at all.
I am just refuting the claim, that depression is an inevitable outcome of understanding the world properly.
And that means, even if you are depressed and understand the world, you should try to do something about your depression.
Even if the world sucks, the logical, smart response would not be despair and depression, because that fixes nothing.
How logically do most people act, in your estimation? How logically would they act, if an unbearable depression descended upon them through looking at the shape of the world today? How many active genocides are taking place? How quickly will climate change destroy our way of life, and is there anything you, as an individual, can do to stop it? What about food and water insecurity being faced by millions of people? Millions of Americans, even? Lack of healthcare, the widening income gap between the 1% and everyone else? What can you logically do to address these global, ever worsening issues?
Perhaps the fact that you can’t do anything about these very real issues can also be a source of depression? Especially when you’re struggling just to keep your head above the metaphorical water?
One of the last vestiges of hope is a belief in karma. That the evil people perpetuating these evil things will one day face justice. But that’s not true, is it? kissinger never faced consequences. Somehow I doubt trump or netenyahoo will either.
I imagine your answer is probably something along the lines of “focus on your immediate needs and community.” Which boils down to, ignore these problems, because there’s nothing you can do. Kinda like telling an employee aboard a star ship to tidy their working area as the main computer counts down the self-destruction sequence.
I, for one, cannot imagine that Sisyphus is happy.
Ok here’s a counterpoint, sure the world sucks in that all the things you mentioned are happening, but also - compared to the conditions we were genetically programmed to endure, modern life is amazing. For the vast majority of people, our base biological needs are met effortlessly. The majority of human existence has historically been a struggle for calories. Like, thats it. That’s 99% of your life: either hunting, foraging, farming, or directly supporting the people in your family who do. Also, the strong dominating the weak wasn’t even questioned it was just a fact of life.
Transport one of those people from the hunter-gatherer/bronze age/iron age/midevial era and they would be ecstatic in the modern day. Try to tell them about Netanyahu or Trump and they would probably say “wow they sound like an asshole but not as bad as the guys I had to deal with”.
There are no objectively good or bad human conditions. Things can always be better or worse. People’s emotions and perception of human conditions, therefore, are all about whether they perceive things are getting better or worse. The good part about that is it gives you agency. All most people have to do to be happy is improve their quality of life, or adjust how they perceive the world in order to give themselves a more positive outlook.
Tldr get tf off of Lemmy and the rest of social media
All most people have to do to be happy is improve their quality of life, or adjust how they perceive the world in order to give themselves a more positive outlook.
Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and imagine yourself happy!
Not trying to be flippant but… not good advice.
Also I think trump has probably raped more children than most mean midevial guys.
wasn’t Genghis Kahn like, famously benevolent to his men and tolerant of other beliefs and customs?
The principal source of steppe wealth was post-battle plunder, of which a leader would normally claim a large share; Genghis eschewed this custom, choosing instead to divide booty equally between himself and all his men.[209] Disliking any form of luxury, he extolled the simple life of the nomad in a letter to Changchun, and objected to being addressed with obsequious flattery. He encouraged his companions to address him informally, give him advice, and criticise his mistakes.[210] Genghis’s openness to criticism and willingness to learn saw him seeking the knowledge of family members, companions, neighbouring states, and enemies.[211] He sought and gained knowledge of sophisticated weaponry from China and the Muslim world, appropriated the Uyghur alphabet with the help of the captured scribe Tata-tonga, and employed numerous specialists across legal, commercial, and administrative fields
Transport one of those people from the hunter-gatherer/bronze age/iron age/midevial era and they would be ecstatic in the modern day.
Would they? Would they appreciate property rights, being locked in a box every night, processed foods, competitive employment, paying for food and shelter instead of making it yourself, sexual harassment prohibitions? These things all have both good and bad aspects and somebody transported from another reality into this one could focus on either. At the very least they would be homesick and perpetually at odds with modern laws.
I partially agree. Depression has nothing to do with logic and Depression is kind a Symptom of messed up brain or hormones i think. People dont decide to be depressed.
And i would like to throw in the theory that high and low selfesteem does not really exist, but rather stabile and fragile ego. People with high or low self esteem tend to struggle with critic and be defensive or tend to feel bad about themselves. But that is gross generalisation and fragile/stable ego makes a lot more sense to me
There are a few conflicting frameworks, plus what I describe is normative behavior rather than people with diagnosable conditions (depression in abnormal psychology tends to be more a dysfunction of the brain). I teach social psychology to undergraduates, so I’m familiar with the other frameworks at a fairly broad level-- the one the person you responded to is a bit of an older perspective, but the direction you’re taking I’ve heard discussed.
Still, it’s difficult to get into the details in a Lemmy comment on a shower thoughts thread.
None the less, I mostly don’t like the fragile/secure ego approach because it’s harder to measure something like that, meaning there’s less evidence that’s what’s going on.
I will say more generally though, our brains seek out acceptance and avoid rejection, much like we do physical pain (fMRI confirms it’s the same part of the brain). That includes good things, like behaving cooperatively, and bad things, like confirmation bias. Self-esteem, similarly, cuts both ways-- it makes us feel better without needing external sources of esteem, but it also rejects external threats to that self esteem.
I simply worry that excess of anything leads to bad outcomes, like certain politicians we’re dealing with now. But now we’re getting more into my opinion and less about the research.
True on the measurability but to me its a concept that explains a lot of social behaviour. The following is my current understanding of it. It of cause has a lot of root causes playing together, like internalized / toxic shame, fears, self doubt, socialization etc.
Depending on the framework, it can be Interpreten differently i think:
Overcompensation (big ego) or surrender (small ego) are modes we slip into and both are part of a fragile ego which means low selfesteem. And also low confidense.
Being and accepting myself is high selfesteem and means a stable ego and high/realsitic confidense. Or also realistic self image.
I thing understanding and recognising those behaviours in oneself is helfpul to reach a stable ego but they are a very generalized view and can habe many causes. So it only helps a bit to recognize ones own patterns but its not possible to improve the selfesteem etc by working on selfesteem, as its just a symptom.
I think to improve selfesteem we have to gain proficiency and confidense in multiple fields by repetition and training which will spread to other areas. We habe to overcome our shame and fear by facing them and being open about it. And learn that people are different and that is beautiful becsuse everyone will find their tribe.
I am sorry, but this is nonsense. Even if the world sucks, the logical, smart response would not be dispair and depression, because that fixes nothing.
Also things like looking down on other or defensiveness are symptoms of low self esteem, not a high one. If you really are confident in yourself, you don’t need to feel better than others, because you feel good about yourself.
You can understand the world and still try to enjoy your life. The world always sucked and people found ways to cope with it. But that is a skill, that doesn’t always come naturally, but you should always strife towards that.
I am sorry, you are going through this, but don’t try to rationalize it. It is nearly rational, nor is it an inevitable outcome of high intelligence (this is not a judgement of you personally by the way).
There’s nothing logical or smart about depression. That doesn’t make it less real or debilitating.
Yes, that’s not what I am saying at all. I am just refuting the claim, that depression is an inevitable outcome of understanding the world properly. And that means, even if you are depressed and understand the world, you should try to do something about your depression.
How logically do most people act, in your estimation? How logically would they act, if an unbearable depression descended upon them through looking at the shape of the world today? How many active genocides are taking place? How quickly will climate change destroy our way of life, and is there anything you, as an individual, can do to stop it? What about food and water insecurity being faced by millions of people? Millions of Americans, even? Lack of healthcare, the widening income gap between the 1% and everyone else? What can you logically do to address these global, ever worsening issues?
Perhaps the fact that you can’t do anything about these very real issues can also be a source of depression? Especially when you’re struggling just to keep your head above the metaphorical water?
One of the last vestiges of hope is a belief in karma. That the evil people perpetuating these evil things will one day face justice. But that’s not true, is it? kissinger never faced consequences. Somehow I doubt trump or netenyahoo will either.
I imagine your answer is probably something along the lines of “focus on your immediate needs and community.” Which boils down to, ignore these problems, because there’s nothing you can do. Kinda like telling an employee aboard a star ship to tidy their working area as the main computer counts down the self-destruction sequence.
I, for one, cannot imagine that Sisyphus is happy.
Ok here’s a counterpoint, sure the world sucks in that all the things you mentioned are happening, but also - compared to the conditions we were genetically programmed to endure, modern life is amazing. For the vast majority of people, our base biological needs are met effortlessly. The majority of human existence has historically been a struggle for calories. Like, thats it. That’s 99% of your life: either hunting, foraging, farming, or directly supporting the people in your family who do. Also, the strong dominating the weak wasn’t even questioned it was just a fact of life.
Transport one of those people from the hunter-gatherer/bronze age/iron age/midevial era and they would be ecstatic in the modern day. Try to tell them about Netanyahu or Trump and they would probably say “wow they sound like an asshole but not as bad as the guys I had to deal with”.
There are no objectively good or bad human conditions. Things can always be better or worse. People’s emotions and perception of human conditions, therefore, are all about whether they perceive things are getting better or worse. The good part about that is it gives you agency. All most people have to do to be happy is improve their quality of life, or adjust how they perceive the world in order to give themselves a more positive outlook.
Tldr get tf off of Lemmy and the rest of social media
Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and imagine yourself happy!
Not trying to be flippant but… not good advice.
Also I think trump has probably raped more children than most mean midevial guys.
It IS good advice I swear to god. Its not even controversial its what any therapist would tell you. Make lifestyle changes and improve your mindset.
Yeah Trump is a bad dude but tell me with a straight face hes worse then Genghis Kahn or Vlad the Impaler.
wasn’t Genghis Kahn like, famously benevolent to his men and tolerant of other beliefs and customs?
Would they? Would they appreciate property rights, being locked in a box every night, processed foods, competitive employment, paying for food and shelter instead of making it yourself, sexual harassment prohibitions? These things all have both good and bad aspects and somebody transported from another reality into this one could focus on either. At the very least they would be homesick and perpetually at odds with modern laws.
Processed foods would blow their fucking minds. Yeah im sure they would be a little homesick so lets let them take their friends and family.
Living in the woods or like a peasant in an undeveloped country is still an option, there’s a reason nobody does it though.
Starting with: people who try to do it get arrested / evicted / victimized.
As opposed to the legal protections given to people in ancient times?
People in ancient times had their tribe, respect of their clan, and a hell of a lot less crowding.
Today, you can put yourself 50 miles from the nearest civilization and still be removed by authorities based on a flyover spotting.
Aight you win i guess, things were better back in the good old days, being happy in modern society isnt possible and you shouldn’t try.
I partially agree. Depression has nothing to do with logic and Depression is kind a Symptom of messed up brain or hormones i think. People dont decide to be depressed.
And i would like to throw in the theory that high and low selfesteem does not really exist, but rather stabile and fragile ego. People with high or low self esteem tend to struggle with critic and be defensive or tend to feel bad about themselves. But that is gross generalisation and fragile/stable ego makes a lot more sense to me
There are a few conflicting frameworks, plus what I describe is normative behavior rather than people with diagnosable conditions (depression in abnormal psychology tends to be more a dysfunction of the brain). I teach social psychology to undergraduates, so I’m familiar with the other frameworks at a fairly broad level-- the one the person you responded to is a bit of an older perspective, but the direction you’re taking I’ve heard discussed.
Still, it’s difficult to get into the details in a Lemmy comment on a shower thoughts thread.
None the less, I mostly don’t like the fragile/secure ego approach because it’s harder to measure something like that, meaning there’s less evidence that’s what’s going on.
I will say more generally though, our brains seek out acceptance and avoid rejection, much like we do physical pain (fMRI confirms it’s the same part of the brain). That includes good things, like behaving cooperatively, and bad things, like confirmation bias. Self-esteem, similarly, cuts both ways-- it makes us feel better without needing external sources of esteem, but it also rejects external threats to that self esteem.
I simply worry that excess of anything leads to bad outcomes, like certain politicians we’re dealing with now. But now we’re getting more into my opinion and less about the research.
If you’re curious, the textbook I use is open source. https://opentextbc.ca/socialpsychology/
It’s not perfect, though. I find it covers the topic well enough not to need to force my students to buy a text.
True on the measurability but to me its a concept that explains a lot of social behaviour. The following is my current understanding of it. It of cause has a lot of root causes playing together, like internalized / toxic shame, fears, self doubt, socialization etc.
Depending on the framework, it can be Interpreten differently i think: Overcompensation (big ego) or surrender (small ego) are modes we slip into and both are part of a fragile ego which means low selfesteem. And also low confidense.
Being and accepting myself is high selfesteem and means a stable ego and high/realsitic confidense. Or also realistic self image.
I thing understanding and recognising those behaviours in oneself is helfpul to reach a stable ego but they are a very generalized view and can habe many causes. So it only helps a bit to recognize ones own patterns but its not possible to improve the selfesteem etc by working on selfesteem, as its just a symptom.
I think to improve selfesteem we have to gain proficiency and confidense in multiple fields by repetition and training which will spread to other areas. We habe to overcome our shame and fear by facing them and being open about it. And learn that people are different and that is beautiful becsuse everyone will find their tribe.