One time I was called right extremist and left extremist by the same person on the same day I guess that I am the entirety of politics now
Certified grill master
and if somebody wants to know where that character is from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomins
Near as I can tell, a leftist would do anything to keep a liberal out of power over believing only 75% of the same things as them, and allow the right to take control, but at least they get to keep the moral high ground of not allowing a liberal to do that 25%. Never mind that the right actively opposed everything to leftist wants completely.
Liberals of all political persuasions tend to believe in monopolies created by the state through private property rights. Owners of private property maintain a monopoly on the use of the property. There are progressive liberal arguments proposing the state can keep monopolies in check.
Elections worldwide have been pushing right. I argue monopolies have consolidated power and are better equipped to misinform and buy elections. Liberals see this system of monopoly as justified (right) or controllable (left).
Leftist propose different economic and representation systems. One such system is anarchism. As an anarchist, I favor horizontal power structures with property not directly worked by a person held in common. Elections should give way to consensus building. Heirarchies, though sometimes necessary, should be answerable to the represented people. The tools of violence should be democratized to prevent the formation of unnecessary heirarchies that would create monopolies on violence.
There are alternatives to anarchism that could be considered leftist. The Marxist-Leninist propose other economic and representation systems. I will not represent them. There is definitely infighting amongst leftist.
Liberals are “the right” and they sure as hell don’t believe 75% of the same things as leftists. Leftists in the west also don’t really have the power to keep liberals out of power, hence why liberals have consistently been the only ones in power for decades. Liberals on the other hand, absolutely do have the power to keep leftists out, and they will go as far as allying with fascists to murder leftists in their beds.
Liberalism is literally and historically where the left begins. The right is authoritarianism and the left is liberalism to anarchism. Liberals are not leftists but it is a signof a distinct lack of education in political philosophy to claim liberalism as a right wing ideology.
Liberalism didn’t exist for most of history, so trying to invoke “history” to argue that liberalism has some kind of timeless and eternal claim to being on the left is unconvincing. Yes, liberalism was the left in the eighteenth century, but we’re in the twenty first century.
The division of political ideologies into left and right derives from the French Parliament which had the monarchists on the right and the liberals on the left.
Every reference to right and left stems from this so yes in fact Liberalism has always been where the left starts even if liberals are nit leftists because the political left is anti-authoritarian.
The binary has not changed and I promise you any claim ypu make to the contrary is going to be mired in euro-centric beliefs.
The division of political ideologies into left and right derives from the French Parliament which had the monarchists on the right and the liberals on the left.
The names yes, but the basic conflict is much older, Europe itself had the Guelph-Ghibelline conflict.
Perhaps it us my American education in geography, but isn’t France still part of Europe?
The Gelph-Ghibelline conflict was about secular monarchism vs religious authority. Im not sure I see the point you’re making.
Liberalism is the ideological basis of Capitalism. When Capitalism was a progressive force, ie during the French Revolution, it was considered left wing. Now that Capitalism has become entrenched and turned to Imperialism, the progressive side is undeniably Socialism, while liberalism entrenches the status quo.
Simply saying that liberalism at one point was progressive does not mean history has not had several centuries of shifts and developments since then.
You’re being incredibly euro-centric with your claims here.
How so?
Your notion of where the modern divide lies is 100% European and won’t hold true when you consider all nations.
Liberalism is european in origin, as Capitalism first truly took hold there. It isn’t the “modern divide” but the notion of Liberalism as a progressive motion or regressive motion.
Sometimes it’s not worth the fight.
I feel like most self described liberals would be leftists if they actually looked into it anyway
That’s my experience, generally. The ones I can get to read a bit of theory tend to be more sympathetic towards Socialism.
Not sure. I know a lot of people who believe in capitalism and maintaining it through socialistic injections, but they aren’t wanting to give the means of production over to the government/people, which is l what leftist is to me.
It has troubles to get that to work, and often times higher expenses, but that’s what they seem comfortable with
I think “socialistic injections” is a misnomer. Capitalism and Socialism are descriptors for entire economies, not parts of them. Generally, reading theory tends to help people support moving towards Socialism.
I get what you mean, but how would you describe Canada’s healthcare system or veteran affairs in the U.S.?
Really the same with public schools, roads, libraries, medical coverage for the elderly, SNAP benefits… they are all socially shared costs by the people, while existing in a capitalistic country
Those are social programs. Socialism and Capitalism are systems overall, the presence of the post office in the US does not alter that character.
Kay this is just semantics at this point, so ultimately it’s unimportant because delving this deep into it distracts from the overall conversation.
With that said, wouldn’t the existence of a post office and other socialized services make the US (and basically every nation state in existence) by strict definitions, a mixed economy? Like if we had to keep to first year undergrad levels.
To be clear for the back row, being this pedantic about semantics not only distracts from the overall conversation but when made as a serious point is at best a sign of ignorance, and at worst it’s an argument made in bad faith in order to move the goal post. This comment is meant as an aside. Ultimately like everything else an economy is a spectrum, and strict categories are more often than not caused by our desire to make things simple.
Alright so the term programs is the word you prefer to injections. I wasn’t saying such programs make the country not capitalistic, I was just saying many people who vote democrat want capitalism with more social programs.
You may be right that if they read more theory they would be more apt to ditch capitalism, but many of them are programmed to reject any talk of other systems.
I gave up on this conversation years ago.
Fine, for the sake of argument, I’m a liberal, because I don’t want to give you 45 extra minutes of my time in this comment section to try and explain the difference when I know you’ll ignore most of what I say anyhow, and derail us from the point I was actually trying to make. If I’m a liberal in your mind, so be it. My point stands.
Okedoke, well I just learned that I have no concrete grasp of political labels and need to do a LOT of research.
Liberalism = individual rights, small government/low regulation
The meme sucks because you can be liberal left or right
That’s my quite right: there’s still big government and heavy regulation under liberalism, it’s just focused on enclosing the Earth’s Commons and enforcing a rigid system of private property. Liberals tend not realize this, in the same way a fish doesn’t realize it’s submerged in water.
Isn’t that libertarianism?
Liber(al), liber(tarian)
Comes from the French Laissez-faire which as a core belief was that landowners should be taxed not workers. Though literally means let (people) be
The opposite is authoritarian which is what OP thinks leftism is
New kids are trying to pretend that liberal means centrist instead of its actual meaning which is simply “not conservative”
That is not and have never been it’s meaning. In fact, conservatives are a type of liberal.
No they are not unless if they are conservative Liberals. A conservative Maoist and a conservative libertarian have very different ideologies despite being conservative within their own binaries. This is due to the fact that conservatism is a position in a binary and is not an ideology.
You can be a conservative and be illiberal.
Ok, sure. But the “conservatives” that they were referring to are liberals.
They state “In fact, conservatives are a type of liberal” and that’s objectively incorrect.
I have news for you. The most notorious conservatives in the last few decades (Reagan, Thatcher, Trump, to name the most significant) are all neoliberals.
Economic liberalization, according to Wikipedia, is the lessening of government regulations and restrictions in an economy in exchange for greater participation by private entities. Policies in service of this include privatization, deregulation, depoliticisation, consumer choice (“the invisible hand of the free market”), globalization (economic imperialism), free trade, monetarism, austerity, and reductions in government spending. These policies are designed to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.
You might not realize it, but this encompasses the entirety of your US political options. For example, when Democrats say they want to make housing more affordable; they don’t mean they want a government-driven effort to build housing, control rent prices, or win any ground back from corporate landlords. They mean they want to supply tax incentives to big business and “cut red tape” by deregulating the housing industry. They talk about it differently, but at the end of the day they want and work towards the same things as Republicans, if not in a slightly less obviously fascist way.
Liberalism overall is a conservative ideology. The way american media uses these terms is completely disconnected from reality. They don’t want you to understand that who you’re cheering for does not represent you or further your views. They don’t want you to understand what leftism is, they just want you to be afraid of it. They want you to pick a flavor of conservative and think you made progress for the social good.
i have news for you the Ayatollah of Iran also a conservative. This is because “conservative” is a position
Extreme simplification:
Liberalism: supports capitalism. Current system + tweaks
Leftism: supports anticapitalism of some form, the two biggest umbrellas being Marxism/Communism and Anarchism
Marxism/Communism: supports collectivization, public ownership, and central planning (I have an introductory reading list if you want to learn more, or just read Principles of Communism)
Anarchism: supports full horizontalism and networks of communes
Sorry to say I’m a self aware liberal capitalist. I must say I love to consoom (with some moderation)
Weird flex. Meeting material needs can be accomplished under different economic systems. I would say as a Liberal Capitalist you believe in a private property system where owners can take the work of others for their own benefit. I would respond, “If you don’t work, you don’t eat”, but that applies to the capitalist owners in the same way as their workers.
You can still get goods and services in Socialism and Communism, I don’t know what you mean by “consooming.”
I guess it depends on which interpretation of communism you believe in.
I’m a Marxist, so Marxian.
Thank you for the reading list! I’ll take a gander :)
They’re conveniently leaving out the entire concept of Socialism for some reason, while making sure to mention Marxism by name.
So I would make sure to add that to the list. Communism is a specific form of socialism, but the two are non synonymous.
I leave out “socialism” because for the vast majority of actual implementations, they have been Marxist in character, and additionally any Socialist system in my opinion would either progress to Communism or regress to Capitalism, making it kind of redundant to split from Communism.
Communism isn’t a type of Socialism if we are being nitpicky, but the Mode of Production after Socialism.
Additionally, I did say it was an extreme simplification, and I meant that. I’m not diving into syndicalism, utopianism, Posadism, Maoism, Gonzaloism, Trotskyism, Hoxaism, etc because ultimately they don’t need to be delved into for someone with no knowledge.
I know we are engaged in other conversation. I will read the other comment when I have time to kill.
I need to respond to the continuum idea of politics namely: capitalism -> socialism -> communism. The continuum is a creation of Lenin in State and Revolution. A similar anachronism is suggesting there is a continuum to evolution. Continuum’s are silly for evolution and politics.
That’s actually wrong. Marx came up with it, he just called what Lenin called “Socialism” as “lower-stage Communism.” The origin is in Historical Materialism, and the concept of Scientific Socialism (as opposed to the Utopian form that thought you could just think up a good society and create it outright).
Calling it a “continuum” is misleading. Capitalism, as an example, starts with many smaller Capitalists but eventually concentrates and monopolizes. This is a trackable and historical motion, not a “continuum” but nonetheless an observed trend. Socialism, on the other hand, continues that movement but does so in the direction of collectivization, as public ownership and planning not only becomes feasible but far more efficient at higher levels of development, which is also observable and trackable.
Communism is when this process has been done and all private property has been folded into the public sector. This isn’t a straight and narrow line, but a process that will happen in many different manners across many different countries, but by tracking trajectories and behaviors this prediction becomes clearer and clearer, and Marx becomes vindicated by the passage of time as we observe them coming to fruition.
It’s also a type of socialism, by the modern definition of the term as I understand it
I know how Marxist-Leninists describe it, but I’m not a Marxist-Leninist.
Socialism is an umbrella term that includes communism.
The person we are replying to is someone who wanted the absolute basics. Getting into the nuances of minor Syndicalist movements, the historical Utopian Socialists like Saint-Simon, or other forms really isn’t relevant unless you want to dig deeper.
Historically, the 2 largest and most significant strands of Leftist thinking and practice have been Marxist and Anarchist, and there are no non-Communist Marxists. I mean this absolutely, 99.9% of existing leftism has been either Marxist or Anarchist. They don’t need to understand the subtle differences in Yugoslavian Marxism or Russian or Chinese or Cuban, because they all are forms of Marxism.
Further still, again, Communism comes after Socialism. It isn’t a form of Socialism.
Further still, again, Communism comes after Socialism. It isn’t a form of Socialism.
Only if you define “socialism” only as “the transition period between capitalism and communism.”
And I do not. Because, again, I am not a Marxist-Leninist.
And it seems like you have some all-encompassing need to label everything, but I would say many people on the left do not subscribe to an individual label like you seem to think that they do.
It also makes sens, if you’re not knowledgeable on politics, your reasoning might rather resemble a philosophical one.
And philosophically speaking the basis of liberalism could means both left or right wing values depending on the philosopher.
For exemple Kant’s philosophy was based on rational individuals to wich giving positive rights would permit to govern themselves. It also means laws would be universal wich would create equality. You can see how this could be compatible with some anarchist ideas or more generally with democracy.
In communism you would also have those positive rights. But you would also justify interventions to protect those rights, against lack of resources for instance (although that’s outside of Kant’s scope).
In the contrary, Lock’s ideas is negative rights to protect people from the government and each other. Guaranteeing things like property. And ultimately wanting freedom. Thus giving the right wing liberalism it mainly refers to today.
Furthermore it’s the basis of capitalism. Which, if i’m being honest, is mostly what’s implied by liberalism when it comes to the economy, although i would argue against. With how defective capitalism is you could argue protectionism should be wanted by liberals to prevent all thoses monopolies we see everywhere. In this instance we could see a part of liberalism that tend more towards a leftist idea.
Gestures at the current state of affairs
I don’t think patience is working guys.
Unpopular opinion:
Alienating liberals doesn’t create more leftists, it only causes people to be dismissive of the term and dig in their heels.
Insulting them rather than educating them does nothing but divide anyone left of center and after the last election I think it’s abundantly clear that we need to be unified rather than divided.
No one is going to argue that left leaning candidates aren’t far from perfect, but they’re a hell of a lot better than the far-right fascists were about to have in power in less than 2 weeks.
Yes, I agree modern liberals are too centrist and ineffective but at the end of the day they’re light-years ahead of the far right, and I’d rather be agitated about having another centrist administration than alarmed and outraged at the onset of fascism.Apparently to some that’s the goal. I had a chat with a leftist a while back while the US election was in full swing and she was absolutely against the concept of voting for a lesser evil, since the worse things get, the more people will turn to leftist extremism, which is a win in her book. Suffice it to say, that talk made me anything but sympathetic of her view…
Calling US leftists extremists is the funniest joke I’ve read today!
Truth is liberals are much more extremists than most leftists. At some point they will need to realise it and take responsibility for the shit they did for so long.
She’s what one would generally refer to as a tankie and even refers to herself as extremist, so I do believe that is the appropriate term.