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They’re the majority of the membership of our trade unions and military. Most are there because they didn’t have the fiscal and educational opportunities that others had.
For nearly a decade they’ve perceived no practical alternative means but to remain committed to orange “literally anything else”. Practical alternatives means of change exist, especially outside of electoral means.
Who should be teaching them about their practical alternative means of change?
Can they be subsequently trusted to wisely choose for themselves?
Nice, ChatGPT.
You give them far, far too much credit.
Unless they came out of 15-year coma just in time for the election and voted purely on name recognition, they knew exactly what they were voting for, and why.
No, they’re not smart enough to have that realization.
That implies Trump supporters have any introspection. The only thing they think in a mirror is “Haha, im a gigachad who triggers da libs with my maga hat!”
Lol. They don’t think white supremacy is bad.
And those that do gaslight themselves into saying that’s not what it was
Sorry, Thanks to American Exceptionalism, (and Americans misunderstanding what that term even means). They will never, ever, ever ever ever admit that they are wrong.
The next logical step is to start seeing rambling about “god is with us, jesus is on our side” etc.
Repeating “they are bad and dumb” ad nauseum is no way to inspire sane conversation. It’s just echo chamber circle jerk.
I dont have any interest in conversing with people who are making jokes about annexing my country, or trying to shove evangelical horseshit into everyone’s mouth. Theres no conversation to be had. I’m 7 or 8 years past trying to talk to most of them.
I’m trying not to fed post but what’s even the solution for this rampant indoctrination of the uneducated and gullible?
Tough question man…dunno
American pride won’t admit defeat, you’re right. However, most Americans are blind to brown nosing. Like Trump, if you just make them feel good emotionally, you can make them do whatever you want. (See the lifting of the tik tok ban)
Just call us good little boys and girls and tell us Jesus would want us to share, and you’ll have a communist America overnight.
Well he moved the bullet because he wanted trump to rule. Just awaiting DOGE to announce they are going to make recovering the Ark of the Covenant a top priority.
That is, assuming they have the ability to self-reflect
Unsurprising that the ADL swept in to defend him.
They’re called the apartheid defense league for a reason
100%. Zionists have always had ties to the Nazi Party.
Starts with “no, it wasn’t EXACTLY the same salute because his wrist angle is 0.0001 degrees different”
Then “no, he was just being sarcastic, no one can just be ironic anymore”
Then “okay but it’s not that bad, he’s not literally putting people in concentration camps”
Then “okay but it wasn’t my fault, I’m a good person”
“I just can’t believe the face-eating leopards who constantly made face-eating gestures and promised to eat faces on day one would eat my face!”
Even if we give them literally all of benefit of doubt and assume it really was Bellamy salute, it don’t make it any better, it’s still salute of genocidal empire. And i don’t have any benefit to give, Bellamy salute is old rubbish nerd trivia from century ago, here and now Musk gesture have only one meaning.
you are forgetting that Elon is a dumbass and it is probable that he really did a nazi salute by accident
‘Accident’ isn’t the word I’d use to describe a famous, clear, unique and repeated gesture. It’s not something one does unknowingly. I’d lean more towards ‘association’, ‘intuition’, perhaps ‘familiarity’, if it weren’t premeditated. It’s no secret that Musk is frequently interacting with and boosting neo-nazis on their social media platform, the most doubt I could possibly give them is they wanted to do a powerful victory gesture, picked the first one that came to mind and they were too damn ignorant to realize even US conservatives don’t like Nazi symbols.
Accidental like Strangelove, perhaps. Just an involuntary spasm revealing his true nature.
Dr. Strangelove is a surprising adept analogue - immigrant from a white supremacist regime who can’t leave it behind, weird and socially awkward, [supposed] tech expert. Maybe I’m stretching it a bit.
I wasn’t trying to insinuate that he doesn’t support nazis, just doubting he would actually make it this blatantly obvious
They are fully mask off and to play off any of their obvious rhetoric is sanewashing at best and doublespeak indoctrination at worst.
apparently so, maybe I’m just still in denial
Buying Twitter and turning it into Nazi heaven all the while banning anyone who disagreed with him under the banner of “free speech” wasn’t a big enough clue for you?
But it’s nothing new . Listen to the dollop podcast on Elon Musk. He didn’t appear out of a vacuum. People are formed by their upbringings.
[…] wasn’t a big enough clue for you?
no it was, but that was definitely more subtle than just doing a nazi salute, like what he did now
…uh. No, it was just a Nazi salute. Twice. Do you need him to sit there and hold it so you can really confirn?
i never denied it was a nazi salute
i edited my comment to make it more clear what i meant to say
Sadly, anyone who would vote for him is incapable of this level of self reflection.
They’re in a media ecosystem that just won’t talk about this stuff. FOX News and Drudge Report are going to run a thousand “Random Black Person Acts Scary!” headlines before you’ve had your coffee, then lead into the latest Musk scandal with “Very Jewish Very Not-Fascist ADL says Elon Actually Cool And Good”.
This isn’t a question of self-reflection nearly so much as it is an accumulation of priors from outside sources.
What they’re incapable of is recognizing that ‘the badies’ (Nazis) is something they should avoid.
The problem isn’t that they don’t know they’re evil, it’s that they fucking love it.
No Trump voter is casual unless they literally closed their eyes and scribbled randomly on the ballot
Of course there are. My neighbor is one. A simple minded idiot, conned by the lies and the cult of personality. But, if you talked to him, you’d never think for a second that he’d vote for Trump.
Their eyes are still closed. Unless you walk up to that neighbor in the next day or so and show him the clip, he won’t see it or believe it.
Hell, it’s already too late and your neighbor is probably already making excuses about how Elon Musk is just sharing his hearts energy or some shit.
Then what? I must know more about OP’s neighbor!
Absolutely nothing changes. The “closed eyes” people are just as bad as the actual fascists, because they’re enablers.
It was a roman salute
Yeah okay
Look, the shitty excuses already began.
In 2008 Polish court really acquitted three members of ONR, most prominent Polish neonazi organisation on exactly this excuse.
Its a two party system and plenty of people looked at the options, decided “I’m going to vote for the least bad candidate”, and went with Trump.
That’s in part because Haris’s campaign sucked shit (she spent more time on the trail with Liz Cheney than her own VP), in part because Biden’s “booming” economy couldn’t seemed to rectify the same escalating wealth imbalance we’ve been drowning in since Ford/Carter, in part because generations of voter disenfranchisement have stacked the deck against liberals, and in part because 15M D voters didn’t show up between 2020 and 2024.
But the idea that “casual” voters of any strip don’t exist really ignores how many Obama-Trump-Biden-Trump voters just flit in the wind based on however they’re feeling at a given moment.
What’s more, if the US has an underlying ideology, it tends toward fascism. Liberals don’t want to grapple with that, so they end up offering up half-a-fascism to the moderate voter and telling the Radical Antifa Leftists to pound sand every four years.
Bullies know to be bullies.
Yes
I really don’t like Elon musk and I am convinced that he cares little about anyone but himself. He is a liar and a fraud. His Morals are clearly 100% motivated by profit. He seems sexist and classist.
Trump is obviously classist and seemingly racist (the difference between racist and classist isn’t always so obvious)
I really really don’t like both of them.
Edit: update: I see now clearly what people meant and why they think what they think. And I agree. In the comments below this comment, I express why I was mistaken. The position after this edit, I don’t hold anymore. I just don’t want to hide my mistakes.
Thanks https://leminal.space/comment/13052692 Edit: ended.
But I don’t think Elon did a salute. To me, (especially as he did it twice) it seems like he moves his hand to his heart and then “throws” it out to the audience. Would be on brand for Zuckerberg, very alien. But “innocent”. I guess, you could argue that it is a dog whistle and he wants deniability.
Honestly, It doesn’t matter to me. A bad man is a bad man.
Video evidence of him throwing a Nazi salute; side-by-side comparison of him and Hitler throwing the same salute; he’s boosting the fucking NAZI PARTY in Germany, but i don’t think he means it, guys!
Oh I believe he is a racist and a classist. The execution is just so horrible that I don’t believe that it was. Could you share the video with me? That could help me to see what you see. I have seen many documentaries (it is a popular topic on German tv) but I just don’t currently see it. It is not like I studied how exactly Hilter did the salute.
It was in another of the many threads discussing this topic. I’ll link it if i can find it.
Hey,
Someone posted this comment. Is it this video? Thanks for your effort!
That wasn’t the one, but it gets the point across.
Oh ok. Thanks for your effort! Have a nice day!
Oh thanks a lot! I am sorry to burden you but I really think, seeing what you see, could help.
Oh thanks! Someone mentioned a video and I asked for it because I was curious which one they were referring to. They said they would look for it. But I haven’t heard from them. Anyway, thanks.
And I am willing to admit, in this comparison, it looks like a very obvious.
Images like these were in my mind.
I understand now why people said that he did. And I think you convinced me. Thanks.
if you dont mean to defend/apologise for musk. why did you even take the time to write this? As a german who studied the ns-regieme a lot in their life let me (and pretty much every expert on that issue who commented on that) tell you that this is a clear nazi solute. not greatly executed, the führer would have been dissapointed, but it features all the elements to that salute. as i suspect elon has a pr team, and ‘educated’ himself on the holocaust in Oświęcim, id say it is impossible he didnt know and accidentally mimiced it in that detail.
I also know a lot about the NS Regime. For similar reasons than you, I assume. The execution is so bad that I just don’t believe it is. But I am happy to admit that I am not aware of the connection between the event and Oświęcim, without assuming that it was a salute. Could you explain that to me, please?
But I don’t think Elon did a salute.
Okay, hear me out. What if the apartheidist xenophobe far-right suck-up with the media machine that front-pages Nazi shit on the regular… what if his arm just did that?
It has been known to happen.
He certainly sucks up to far-right parties. If that should have been a salute then I am honestly shocked by the poor execution. Someone can be a horrible person without all their motion to be motivated by their horrible nature. Sometimes they are weird. And don’t tell me Elon is not a fucking weirdo too.
Your mental gymnastics are Olympic class
Which mental gymnastics? Seriously, please point them out to me.
That’s not how you throw something though
I agree but it isn’t how you do a “proper” “Hilter salute” either. I am just saying what I am seeing and I am making no claims that he is doing that. It is in my opinion like I say a very alien motion.
Look, I get it mistakes happen. If a reasonable person had done something that might have given the wrong impression, they would have been like “sorry that was not my intent, I apologize to those that got offended”.
This is not what Musk did AFTER being called out.
Fuck this. This was a Nazi salute. Don’t believe the gaslighting.
Honestly him saying that it would be an accidental thing, wouldn’t convince me that he didn’t do it intentionally. I think he is a horrible person and a known liar. I just don’t really see it. In the video, it looks really really weird but that just isn’t how Nazis actually salute and what he says in the moment makes some sense. And honestly I think he is too stupid to think of that lie in that moment. So I am either on “he is totally doing it intentionally and planned it for a while and wanted deniability” or “that is just him being weird”. And honestly if it was planned, yikes. I wouldn’t want people to see that with that lie, because yikes even the lie is embarrassing.
Best case scenario it’s a very bold dogwhistle. Which isn’t any better.
Zero fucking patience for liberals calling trump supporters nazis.
Maybe don’t do Nazi salutes then. Zero empathy for you and your Nazi friends.
Why are you drawing the line on the symbolic representations of nazism when you’re complicit in a genocide?
The hand gesture isn’t the problem with nazis. The thing you did is.
Are you fucking deluded or something?? YOU COMMITTED A GENOCIDE. So you got your fucking magnifying glass and slide rule out and managed to find a way to rhetorically say trump is still bad? No one’s arguing he isn’t bad you cynical piece of shit.
YOU COMMITTED A GENOCIDE
Shure because that random person on lemmy commited a genocide. You dont even know where they are from or what thier polirical leanings are
Cope harder
Just please make it clear what you want me to cope over.
A hundred thousand dead children, right? That’s what your snarky fucking attitude is directed towards, you fucking nazi piece of shit, right?
I am not denying the genocide dear person, i am just saying that you have no right to defend whatever is going on right now
Starts the thread complaining about Trump and musk being appropriately called Nazis, ends the thread calling everyone who disagrees Nazis.
🤌 Chef’s kiss. You’re the Simone Biles of mental gymnastics.
I didn’t think it would only take a day for the tankies to throw their lot in with Trump with so much enthusiasm. I figured they’d pretend for a little longer at least.
No one’s arguing he isn’t bad you cynical piece of shit
You’re a fucking idiot. Learn to read before you speak or shut the fuck up.
You check in with Vlad before you go near any windows.
Removed by mod
Oh hey, straight up genocide denial being upvoted on Lemmy. Very cool.
“Biden didn’t campaign on causing a genocide so it doesn’t count”
“It’s not a genocide it’s a conflict between two nations”
+11 -5
Lemmy is a nazi bar
Then why did they vote for someone promising to do Nazi policies?
You literally voted for someone committing a genocide. What fucking nazi policies are you referring to??
Deportations and containment camps being talked about would be a good place to start…
When did I vote for someone committing a genocide?
The first line where the democrats made all those policies incrementally worse just like the last several presidents of both parties aside…
I’m sorry, I shouldn’t assume. Who did you vote for?
Both of the parties are a shit show. But Trump is the one being discussed.
Mate I’m not even American.
But Trump is the one being discussed.
And who’s doing the discussing? What’s the context of the discussion?
You’re criticizing something as if you actually hold those values.
This discussion is not being held in good faith.
If it wasn’t clear, I think Nazis, Trump, Elon etc are scum. Biden is basically the same, as he never did anything about Palestine.
Have a good day.
Just give up. You can’t win here. I also hate the near perfect echo-chamber liberals have here on lemmy, but there’s nothing to get out of arguing here.
I just wish they’d leave their crying out of memes…
You just spent all of your political capital supporting a genocide. You aren’t better than them. You are objectively worse.
Cowards downvoting without speaking. Do I detect shame? Or am I giving you too much credit?
Interaction with you is worth less than the cost of a downvote.
Well good for you! You got to watch inferior brown skinned infants die in a bombed out hospital AND get a quippy vapid comeback to an internet argument! You must be over the fucking moon.
Now Im wondering whether your either a troll or just seriously misguided. like what do you get out of accusing random people on lemmy, who you assume are liberals fore being responsible for the palestinisn genocide. Like maybe that is easy compared to taking direct action and organizing.
If you’re getting up in arms over me shouting at people who supported a genocide you are self selecting as one of those people. So fucking spare me the civility trolling that I’m throwing strays.
