TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person’s identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a “different gender”. I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my “attire” says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a “personal” conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what “orientation” (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some “positive discrimination” (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
I don’t usually like to use specific terms to define myself, but to me it’s easier to say: “bisexual agender” than: “I don’t actually fit into the gender roles nor identities, and I also like a lot of different people, but not always. Also I sometimes feel inclined to a gender, but never enough to say ‘I’m that’”. You know, like a TL;DR.
Also, I’ve known different types of people who need definitions and certain terms:
- People starting to explore their identities and want to know if there’s someone somewhere that feels/understand the same.
- People that will invalidate feelings and will not believe things unless there’s more people telling them that they exist (doesn’t always work).
- I, because I’m lazy and specific terms save me some time when I don’t want to explain the whole thing, but it’s enough for others to look up.
I’m pretty sure there are more reasons, but you need to understand that external people will try to negate anything that’s not “written down”. And to add more context, there are some terms I haven’t even seen in person or known, but whatever, I respect that. I hope categorizing is not needed in the future. Unfortunately, there’s still backlash, hate and violence towards the community, with or without “weird” words, you can be targeted just because of your looks or your personality.
P.S.: some people may not need to specify their preference/identity, but that may be because theirs is seen as “normal”, that’s a whole other discussion.
I don’t think the weird pronouns or identities like “I’m a blue black dragon born in Azeroth” make any sense to me whatsoever but it takes me zero effort to use whatever the person prefers so even if it doesn’t make sense to me I’d rather not go out of my way to make a person sad, especially someone who I have no idea what they’re going through in their own lives. We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things.
We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things
If only everyone would get that. Thanks!
Can we just call it the "Rainbow Club"🌈🎉?
I think giving any terms create a divide (someone in rainbow club, and someone not). If everyone is in the club, then why even call it a club, that is like whole earth. I generally would prefer if we move away from any terms at all, and just stop asking about gender and sex
I see it like colours, there is an infinite amount of colours, but it makes sense to have a name for the common ones.
Yeah, no.
For that we already have names, they’re called “names”. I have no problem with someone wanting a different pronoun, I have no problem with even a single pronoun for anyone not wanting to fit in the him/her, but all the types wanting a special pronoun njust for them to me is just an attention seeker wanting to feel special.
If you want a (semi) unique word to refer to you, THEN THAT WOULD BE YOUR NAME. I would just refer to you by your name, that’s how languages work.
The entire “but MEMEME needs a special pronoun” is friggin annoying and the behavior has pushed a lot of people into the right. Yes, this having me as the source, but the amount of people I’ve seen hating on the special pronouns and getting more right wing really made this a topic that doesn’t do what you think it does. I think it’s harmful.
Please, can you just be like everyone else with your pronouns? If we have three sets, say, him, her, and xer for those not wanting to be lumped in with guys and girls… We’d be fine, most people would be fine with this. No more “I want my special snowflake pronoun to be special and awesome” please pretty please.
I do think neopronouns can be confusing, but it takes literally no effort to use it.
If you really must not use it you can just use singular they, or the person’s name.but it takes literally no effort to use it.
In written text form? Absolutely. It’s easy to adjust sentences/correct details before hitting submit.
Verbal conversations? I don’t think it’s fair to say it takes no effort… maybe it’s from ADHD, but simply using they/them reliably took an embarrassingly long amount of time. Neopronouns are a whole different challenge for my ADHD-autopilot’d mouth that’s already struggling with forming coherent sentences.
Of course I’m not saying we shouldn’t respect their preferences…I just wanted to add my perspective on the ‘no effort’ part.
Maybe I’m out of the loop, but what are neopronoums?
I do know the classic she, he. And the new gender neutral “they”. Are there more that are starting to be used recently that I don’t know about?
Erm ackshually singular “they” is centuries old now
It is an incredibly niche part of the gender nonconformity movement in that some nonbinary individuals don’t want to use the neutral “they”, and instead want unique pronouns such as “xi/xir” or some such.
I personally don’t agree with it. I’ll just continue to use the singular “they”, as it is gender neutral and works independently of where the individual being referred to sits on the gender spectrum, or use their name, as it is already the unique designation to refer to the specific individual.
I think the problem is that people don’t want to be just “other”. Because that’s what “xer” is.
I am cis and straight, so I don’t have full comprehension of what it feels like not to conform to the norm, but even I understand that if we have only one other pronoun, like “xer”, it’s just saying “the one that isn’t the norm”, and it doesn’t matter if you make it sound like one of the other “normal” pronouns. That doesn’t normalize it. It just silently, yet officially and publicly reaffirms its abnormal quality.
We have to realize that there’s obviously a floating spectrum here, and people don’t fall into predefined buckets sometimes. Some do, but some don’t.
The human brain is built and evolved into a categorization machine. What is edible, what isn’t. What is attractive, what isn’t. What is safe, what isn’t. Black and white, good and evil. We want it simple, and we get confused, afraid, and angry when it isn’t simple. This is something we must recognize about ourselves, and really work hard to go against if we want to evolve our way of thinking.
This is clearly evident in the way you express yourself here.
THEN THAT WOULD BE YOUR NAME
MEMEME
friggin annoying
Please, can you just be like everyone else
most people would be fine with this
my special snowflake pronoun
Your anger and fear of the complicated shines through much brighter than you might think. I think it’s time you sat down and had a big, long thinking about who you want to be and what you really want to say.
Much love to you, and thank you for opening yourself up.
the amount of people I’ve seen hating on the special pronouns and getting more right wing really made this a topic that doesn’t do what you think it does. I think it’s harmful.
those people are going to hate no matter what. pronouns aren’t driving them mad, they’re already nutbags.
Nah
People get influenced all the time to change their opinions and attitudes
I think that the pronouns thing from a few years back did a lot of damage and pushed a lot of people to more right wing ideas. It’s stupid, of course, it’s an annoyance at best, but it has helpt right wing talking heads to have easy material to lure unsuspecting viewers in
People get influenced all the time to change their opinions and attitudes
lol, where do you see this? I see the conservatives sticking to their stupidity through thick and thin. and even when the leopards eat their faces, they’re aghast that the leopards shouldn’t be eating THEIR faces.
‘did a lot of damage’ - no it didn’t. it upset people who were already upset about gays getting to live in society, get married and not have their heads bashed in by chuds every week.
Nah, get fucked with that. haters gonna hate. they aren’t going to wake up one day and turn to hate suddenly, because someone used a pronoun.
These fucks were assholes already.
I honestly haven’t seen that in years. And even if it was everywhere, does it honestly matter what they prefer to go by? I mean, it’s honestly just a pronoun
Sorry to do this: If you are unsure if you are an aero ace, just check how many confirmed kills you have with your plane. If you downed 5 or more hostile military planes you are an aero ace, also known as flying ace.
It’s important to learn your definitions.
Aro ace: Aromantic, asexual.
Aero ace: Shot down five other planes in war while flying a plane.
Arrow ace: Acquired every skill known to man by spending five years on an abandoned island, most of which wasn’t actually spent on the island.
I am sorry to report commander, but I have no kills yet. I am definitely not an ace.
Those are rookie numbers. Gotta pump those numbers up
Aye, Aye sire!!!
I don’t know the answer, but I support people as however they identify, I don’t care and love them all, but I sort of would feel silly saying I was she/her. Like it’s like I’m participating in something that I’m not really a part of.
My 87 year old aunt volunteers for a local theater, which obviously has a lot of queer folks involved, and at one point the coordinator said when the volunteers introduced themselves at a meeting that they should announce their preferred pronouns. I get that the coordinator meant well, but my aunt said it’s nobody’s business what her pronouns are unless RuPaul is asking. LOL.
why do we have so many terms?
The reason I see behind this is hyper individualism. Every one needs to feel special and unique in a group supposed to act in solidarity. I disagree with the amount of terms, especially the slur included, because the community can be summed up with H (homosexual) and B (Bisexual). Everything else has created more infighting within the wider community, and made it feel like a dumping ground for anyone who isn’t “cishet” for the sake of inclusion.
Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
I find this to be true, mainly when your label prevents you from interacting with people of the “wrong” label. Which isn’t exclusive to the Gay community, and found anywhere people group up.
Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The entire purpose of pronouns is to avoid the repetition of a name.
“Sally said that Sally wanted to go to Sally’s house to get Sally’s medicine.”
“Sally said that she wanted to go to her house to get her medicine.”
They are dependent on the sex of the subject historically, leading to why they now depend on “gender” in language as we have been moving further from a binary understanding of sex.
Should this not just be something personal?
I think it is something that should be personal. No one needs to know the specifics of my sexual attractions excluding those I wish to be sexual with.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it?
I would say simply thank them for being open with you and do your best to use them. If all else fails people have a name and you can default to that to avoid misgendering someone and hurting them.
why do some groups use different acronyms?
Because there has never been a time where the “Gay community” was a unified community, and different groups with different acronyms tend to heavily disagree on what should be added or omitted. It goes back to the first point of why their are so many labels: Everyone wants to feel like an individual even in cases where they are a part of a group.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
That’s perfect. Many people struggle with this, myself included, but if you make an honest effort to address people by their preferred pronouns, then you’re doing great.
thanks!
Sexual orientation is not part of gender! In which way do you think it is?
I am sorry, but it kinda because of the cultural non separation of these 2 concepts in my mother tongue. I did explain it a bit more in another comment
Hm, where? I only saw you talk about gender vs sex, for which there is no difference in my native language either. And they certainly are closely related to the point where the majority of people identify as the gender corresponding to their sex.
However sexual orientation (such as “straight” or “gay” or “aroace” for example) is an entirely different thing as it describes your attraction to other people.
this is the comment chain - https://lemmings.world/post/28743360/16394388
Okay, to avoid confusion maybe I should use the same term you used, which is sexual preference, and not sexual orientation. This is what I’m talking about (from your OP):
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
The only one who talks about this in the linked comment chain is the other person, and only tangentially.
So, again I suppose, in which way do you think this is part of gender?
that was not the part of chain i wanted to refer to. Essentially, my native tongue (or culture in which I was raised), there is (was) no difference between sex and gender, as in, there were not separate concepts. What you guys would call a gender (and this is also partly based on interaction in this chain, where I even ask what does being a male even mean) - users preference of pronoun, or attire, etc is what I called orientation in my op (again, I also said in op that I do not know if that is correct term for it, and it was not).
the paragraph you have highlighted was the only part where I refered sex as sex (the one associated with your partner/s). Other than that paragraph, I mostly (I am guessing here, again, for me concept of gender is new and still fuzzy) meant gender.
I would apologise again for mmy lack of knowledge on this stuff, and this post has helped me understand gender better.
Even the gender/sex distinction isn’t a clear one. When you get into the details biological sex is a very complex topic, and most of the ways you can define someone’s sex are mutable (contrary to popular belief)
The split is also often used as a dogwhistle by conservatives who want to be transphobic in polite society, but that’s another topic altogether.
Yeah. I think sex as a general classifier is not very useful, both in a colloquial and also medical context. I know that firsthand due to taking HRT, which already causes very medically relevant changes but of course not across the board for all sexual characteristics. But I wanted to keep it relatively short :)
Both are social constructs.
For example: the mammals class of animals is a social construct, While mammals would still have characteristics like being warm blooded, or not laying eggs, the classification wouldn’t exist if people didn’t invent it.
Its also not a perfect classification, platypuses lay eggs but are still classified as mammals.Sex is the same, its people who have certain hormones, certain chromosomes or certain genetailia, but there can be people who don’t have the “Proper” chromosome / hormone for their sex, but they still are classified as male/female.
I think its important to look at what purpose a social construct serves, Mammals are a social construct, but they still serve a useful purpose (not saying sex/gender serves / doesn’t serve a useful purpose).
There are plenty of people whose first language is English and who have confused, or still confuse, the two things anyway. As you say, it’s at least partly cultural. They don’t really teach this stuff at school, or at least they didn’t when I was there.
I was one of the confused people once. Then I learned better (and I’m still learning).
I think what’s important is that we’re willing to learn.
I think what’s important is that we’re willing to learn.
(mutilating the legendary quote) “You should keep learning things from other nations. If you stop doing so, your knowledge gets stagnant and stale” - Uncle Iroh
Firstly, I think you’re conflating gender with sexual identity. Gender isn’t covered by any of the LGBTQIA2+ initials; it’s important (to some people) to inform someone of upon meeting them, because it usually relates to their preferred pronouns, and if someone appears outwardly male but prefers to be referred to as ‘They’ (or any other combination of gender + pronoun), that needs to be disclosed. You’ve probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you’re male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male, so I’m going to assume you’ve never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.
But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
This is just how the English language works. Personally, I’ve never met anyone who got upset if someone used a gender neutral pronoun (though I understand those people do exist). If you want to make it easy on yourself, just use They/Them for everyone; English just happens to not be too well-equipped for this, and it can cause confusion in some contexts (singular vs. plural, or when trying to single a particular person out of a crowd). Some of the other pronouns that you’ve probably heard were an attempt to create a singular gender neutral pronoun but none have really stuck in wide use.
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information.
This is likely because you’re ace. If you had a sexual interest in someone, you might be interested to know what gender they preferred.
I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender.
We don’t. This is separate from gender. The only letters in the LGBTQIA2+ acronym that relates to gender is T, for Trans, and I for Intersex, but generally speaking trans people (who I’ve met, anyway) would prefer to just be known by their preferred gender in casual conversation, and intersex people don’t typically advertise that, either (nor should they need to).
As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
You don’t have to disclose sexual preference for either of those things, at least not where I’m from.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
You say “Okay”, and refer to them by their preferred pronoun; it’s essentially the only reason it would come up in casual conversation. Again, there’s nothing sexual about gender. Gender and sexual identity are completely separate.
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
Over time, the acronym has evolved to be inclusive of more groups. That’s all there is to it. As an asexual person, you’re represented by the A (or the +). I have only a few times ever seen a shorter acronym used to specifically exclude some groups, and that shit was shut down pretty quickly by other folks who heard it. If you say “LGBTQIA+”, I highly doubt anyone will be offended or feel that you’re excluding them. (The + is indeed a general addendum meant to include anyone who is part of the community and wasn’t explicitly given a letter.)
Just a note, Intersex mostly refers to biological differences, and is not directly attatched to gender, although intersex people may be more likely to be assigned the wrong gender at birth.
(I am intersex and it is 1 AM so excuse me if this is a bit inaccurate)
Maybe I should have been more specific; I was trying to convey that intersex people (along with trans folks) are the two groups in that acronym for whom gender identity might be closely tied to their ‘letter’ (due to the likelihood of being misgendered); I’ll readily admit that it’s not a topic I’m super familiar with, so, apologies if I’ve not explained it well!
Thank you, you made many things clear. I have kinda used gender and sex kinda interchangably, because in my native tounge, there is no separation. Also, most people LGBTQIA+ representation in media here mostly focused on the sex part. What you refered to as gender in your reply, is what i refered to as “orientation” in my post, mostly because that is how I have understood geneder like that till today - How do you want to be addressed, and for example, how do you dress up.
You’ve probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you’re male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male
I want to ask one more thing, I have never asked/thought of my gender. When you say “you identify as male”, I do not know what that means, what does it mean to identify as a male or female or something else. As I wrote above, in my native tounge, there is no separation.
so I’m going to assume you’ve never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.
As I said, I understand that I am privileged. Though I have been misgendered, mostly because my voice is quite shrill, and people often confuse me of being feminine over phones.
I want to ask one more thing, I have never asked/thought of my gender. When you say “you identify as male”, I do not know what that means, what does it mean to identify as a male or female or something else. As I wrote above, in my native tounge, there is no separation.
In your original post, you said:
I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be.
Which I took to mean that you are biologically male, you consider yourself to be male, and your outward appearance is male. (Apologies if I misinterpreted your meaning.) ‘Identify as male’ simply means that that is your preferred gender (as in, do you prefer to be thought of / referred to as male or female), whether or not it matches your biology. It’s most applicable to trans people, who might be biologically male but identify as female (which we’d refer to as a trans woman, or more concisely, ‘a woman’), or vice versa.
As I said, I understand that I am privileged. Though I have been misgendered, mostly because my voice is quite shrill, and people often confuse me of being feminine over phones.
I didn’t mean to call you out with that comment, I was just using the term you used. :) Wasn’t throwing shade. Having a voice that doesn’t match your gender identity is a great example of why you might want to tell someone your pronouns the first time you talk to them, though (if appropriate).
Also, most people LGBTQIA+ representation in media here mostly focused on the sex part.
LGBTQIA+ relates to sexual preference (mostly), so it makes sense that it’s equated to sex.
I understand it being a difficult concept when your native language doesn’t differentiate, though. That’s pretty rough, and good on you for trying to get a better understanding of it.
If it helps with the terminology:
‘Sex’ can refer to whether someone is (biologically) a male or female - basically, whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. You typically don’t disclose this to someone when meeting them.
This is separate from gender, or ‘preferred gender’, or ‘gender identity’, which refers to what someone wishes to be referred to as. Someone’s sex can be female and their gender be male (and we’d refer to that person as a male). This is what you’d answer with if someone asked you, “Are you a girl or a boy?”
‘Sex’ can also refer to the physical act of having sex with someone, which in turn relates to the LGBTQIA+ acronym, which describes sexual preference (e.g. do you want to sleep with men or women, or both, or neither, or whatever else). I think this might be where some of the confusion comes from. English is a pretty shitty language to learn, especially as a second language.
Wasn’t throwing shade.
No shade taken. I was just acknowledging my priviledge. We sometimes forget that we get a lot of things, which we think are natural and everyone has, until you meet people who do not. And it never hurts to be reminded that what you got is something not yet “normal” for everyone.
Having a voice that doesn’t match your gender identity is a great example of why you might want to tell someone your pronouns the first time you talk to them, though (if appropriate).
I have almost never felt the need to do so, in fact, I do get a bit amused by it. As I said, I do not have a notion of male/female. If someone considers me feminine, I do not feel any different. It maybe a mental thing, or again, a by product of my upbringing.
English is a pretty shitty language to learn, especially as a second language.
I used to somewhat dislike english for being confusing, but it is effectively my first language. I have read/written English more than any other languages combined (4 others) and also spoken it the most/ 2nd most. I find it good enough. Especially, since it’s lingua franca in academia
I have almost never felt the need to do so, in fact, I do get a bit amused by it. As I said, I do not have a notion of male/female. If someone considers me feminine, I do not feel any different. It maybe a mental thing, or again, a by product of my upbringing.
It’s more of an issue for trans folks, some of whom feel a strong disassociation with their biological sex. If someone’s trying hard to pass as a gender that doesn’t match their sex, having someone misgender them feels pretty awful.
I used to somewhat dislike english for being confusing, but it is effectively my first language. I have read/written English more than any other languages combined (4 others) and also spoken it the most/ 2nd most. I find it good enough. Especially, since it’s lingua franca in academia
Fair enough! For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t have known you weren’t a native English speaker if you hadn’t said so yourself (though it did provide useful context around why you were confused about gender vs. sex!)
If someone’s trying hard to pass as a gender that doesn’t match their sex, having someone misgender them feels pretty awful.
understandable. I can see that someone who might have past trauma, or something alike, it would only sprinkle salt on wounds. In my case, I am basically a slowpoke.
To preface all this, this is my nonbinary bisexual person’s opinion, not speaking for all LGBT+ people by any means
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Some people like labels, some like to just be themselves. As a cultural difference I’ve noticed Americans like to divide people by different characteristic more, as a general rule, than people from other places.
I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed).
Then great, you’re already doing well!
But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
I’m absolutely with you, my person, if it was up to me grammatical gender would be totally abolished.
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
Yes, it shouldn’t be something the government cares about, neither should gender. Ideally they shouldn’t ask at all, but usually there is a ‘prefer not to say’ option.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
If respecting a non-trans person’s gender would be doing the same things, to you, then sure
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
Even LGBT+ feels a bit unwieldy to me, and yes, the + already includes all the others so the extra letters are for sure unnecessary. I’ve heard GSM (gender and sexual minorities) as a shorter acronym that doesn’t single out any specific identities, that might be better. For sure, I don’t like using acronyms with ‘queer’ in them as some people get offended by that word and an inclusive acronym shouldn’t offend people or make them feel ‘othered’ or ‘unusual’ for their natural human variation.
I’d never heard of GSM. Is that relatively new? It does feel like it would be much easier to use than the growing acronyms.
thank you, hearing from a person of GSM definitely gives me a better perspective.
but usually there is a ‘prefer not to say’ option.
I do not like that option (it kinda feels like hiding a crime or something). But where I live, most of the time, it is just male/female/others. That still feels harsh, and kinda in line of saying all other “gender minorities” but still feels a bit blunt.
If respecting a non-trans person’s gender would be doing the same things, to you, then sure
Pardon me, but I did not understand this sentence at all. Can you please elaborate (or eli5) it?
Pardon me, but I did not understand this sentence at all. Can you please elaborate (or eli5) it?
Sorry about that! I was basically trying to say that if a trans person tells you their gender, and you then treat them like you would treat a cis person of that gender* (ie, any gendered behaviours that are still in society, you would apply to them - as much as we both want to abolish gender norms), then you’re doing great!
*things that are still gendered in our society include pronoun usage, calling someone gendered terms like brother, niece, etc, bathroom usage, single gender activities, and so in
I hope that’s any more clear, if it’s not I apologise!
Much more clearer, thanks!
Using they/them by default is already a good start - I would be surprised to learn if neopronouns are a thing at all in languages that don’t have gendered pronouns to begin with. they/them is perfectly acceptable to 99+% of people - both cis and LGBT+.
You can just say LGBT or LGBT+. Lots of others are in use but very, very few people will legitimately get mad at you for picking one over any other.
If someone specifically tells you to call them a certain thing, you should call them that thing. Otherwise just stick to they/them.
If someone tells you their sexuality and it is not relevant to you, you have no obligation to ever bring it up again, just as with any form of oversharing.
And as for why some people share these things even though you may personally find it too revealing - that’s just down to personal preference. Different things are important to different people in different ways. Some people might go through their life never giving their gender a single thought. Others might base their life around affirming and fighting for it in various ways. Most people are somewhere in the middle. Everyone has a cause they believe in a lot - for some people, this is that cause. As an “Aero Ace” (a term I had to look up - “aromantic asexual” for those who also haven’t encountered it), you’re probably pretty predisposed to not care about any of this stuff on any significant level.
I’ve been trans for over a decade and have been VERY active in various queer communities across that time. I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who actually uses neopronouns in that time. I’m not denying they exist but they’re certainly rare. The closest was someone who used plural pronouns (we/they), but only when talking in a safe space. Outside that space they use she/her.
What IS fun is using neopronouns in D&D as the DM :) For instance, I often give fey creatures fae/faer pronouns to make them feel otherworldly.
I learnt the term aero-ace in a jaiden animations vid, where she explained it, and that seemed to match with me. I have not explored my gender or sexuality yet, and have never felt the need to do so
For what it’s worth, I am one of those letters and it is somewhat irrelevant to my identity. My identity is the following: human being.
I consider the identity obsession of Gen Z to be mostly narcissistic self-regard. It reflects our society’s rampant individualism, where kids have become a lifestyle choice and pampered like fragile consumer objects. I don’t have any answers about how to fix any of this. Indeed I’m something of an individualist myself.
Be nice to people, but don’t feel the need to indulge their whims if it feels unreasonable.
This is such a smoothbrained take. No shit the concept of a personal identity is individualistic, it came free with being an individual.
I consider the identity obsession of Gen Z
Having a non-cishet identity is not exclusively a Gen Z thing? 🧐 We’ve existed forever??? There are queer people of literally all ages
Back to the original topic, the various identities are similar to music genres. They’re useful when discussing queer topics in nuance. If you’re cishet and uninterested in being an ally, they’re not for you, just let it be.
To put it in perspective, someone who doesn’t listen to metal may just consider anything with distorted guitars “metal” and question why subgenres exist, but two metalheads will definitely care greatly about whether a new band is death metal or folk metal, and a metalhead musician might get even more granular in describing a particular style.
hey jubliant, do you remember me? Greetings! How are you doing? (In case you do not, we had personal chat)
I consider the identity obsession of Gen Z to be mostly narcissistic self-regard. It reflects our society’s rampant individualism, where kids have become a lifestyle choice and pampered like fragile consumer objects. I don’t have any answers about how to fix any of this. Indeed I’m something of an individualist myself.
this seems a bit to harsh. As I see, most people are overly stimulated, this just makes them react a bit more visibly. This is also because of social media. Some news from other side of globe that you may have never got earlier, or weeks later, you now get that in minutes, and similarly, the friction to post is also very low, so most people feel like “raising voice”. Though I do not treat raising voices online to be equivalent to in person voice raising but that is a separate discussion. Maybe individualism is on a rise, because our lives now do not depend much on other people (it still does, now you just do not have to interact with them), so you do not hear about their problems or perspective.
Known troll trolling again.
Sorry, but am I known? I thought I was a huge noobie lemmy user.
